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The "All Opinions are Welcome, but Sorry no Instigators" Board -> Rockaway Township Free Speech -> Rockaway Twp. to discuss idea for new school
Post Info TOPIC: Rockaway Twp. to discuss idea for new school
GadFly


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Rockaway Twp. to discuss idea for new school
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http://www.dailyrecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060916/COMMUNITIES43/609160327/1203/NEWS01

ROCKAWAY TWP. -- Mayor Louis Sceusi and the school board will meet behind closed doors Tuesday to discuss additional classroom space in the K-8 district and possibly a new school.

While officials weren't saying much on Friday, an opponent of the Christ Church building plan said the board would be wise to consider acquiring the 107-acre proposed Christ Church mega-church site on Green Pond Road for a new school.

"I think it's necessary to look at it again," John Jenkins, a co-founder of Voices of Rockaway Township, said on Friday evening.

"We have a growing population. We need more schools, and the places we can go are probably limited," Jenkins said.

"If we're going to give up tax money, I'd rather give it up for a school, rather than something that won't benefit most of us anyway," Jenkins added.

Church unruffled

Marc Weinstein, spokesman for Christ Church, said he doubted that local officials would consider an eminent domain action.

A school board subcommittee, in 2004, considered acquiring the site -- then owned by Agilent Technologies -- but ruled it out due to the cost.

"I find it highly doubtful that they would take that (eminent domain) action," Weinstein said.

"Nothing has been said on the record that the town or board have plans to move forward. I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens," Weinstein said.

School board President Frank Giarratano said on Friday an open meeting following the private session will feature a presentation by the district's architect and public discussion of building plans.

Giarratano said the board's primary emphasis remained on expanding the K-5 Dennis B. O'Brien and Copeland Middle School.

"Right now, those are the two live options," he said.

Giarratano said Sceusi asked to attend the board's executive session, which is scheduled to begin about an hour before the public meeting.

Mayor curious, mum

Sceusi said Thursday that he was seeking a dialogue after hearing rumors of what the board might or might not be considering.

The mayor did not express an opinion on whether the board should reconsider the Christ Church site.

"There's no question it could be used for probably just about anything. It's a large site,"Sceusi said

Giarratano declined to speculate about Christ Church.

"Let's see where the discussion takes us on Tuesday," he said.

The discussion comes as the Christ Church plan nears an apparent resolution before the planning board. The planning board, after 33 months of hearings, ended testimony Monday night and scheduled a vote on Oct. 16.

Giarratano said that, following the school budget's defeat in April, the board was thinking about a referendum in late 2007 aimed only at expanding the two schools.

Pond View angle

However, the possibility of also building a new school was revived when the state Department of Environmental Protection approved an increased water allocation for the 1,100-home Pond View Estates development in August.

The water issue had been holding up construction.

A school board committee's recommendation in 2003 -- building an 85,000-square-foot school along with additions at Copeland and O'Brien -- was predicated on the Pond View project moving forward.

It is not clear when the project, which was first proposed in 1986, might begin, but it is expected to result in a surge of students enrolling in township schools.

"I have yet to receive a firm timeline," on construction Giarratano said.

Councilwoman Barbara Grimaldi declined to say whether she might be open to building a school at the Christ Church site.

"Everyone involved has been sued, with three exceptions," said Grimaldi, referring to herself and two council members who took office after Christ Church filed a federal lawsuit in 2005.

For that reason, "we don't make statements about it," she said.

A new school, she said, might have merit.

"It's a growing community. You've got Pond View coming in ... There will be new children, and we have to be ready for it," Grimaldi said.


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MrBill


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In my mind, and with Morris County already having one of the highest tax rates in the state, it would be difficult for the residents of Rockaway Township to absorb the costs of another "new school" and I think that the State and Federal government would have to kick in a certain amount of funds to help finance. With that said, it would be less expensive in the long run to find an existing building to rehab and expand than it would to start building from scratch. Most office buildings can easily be converted over since the interior walls are not structural, but cosmetic and designed to hide the real internal structural beams within hollow walls.


MrBill

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THINKER


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Taking over 140 for a new school would give the township the same problems as cc and the cost would raise taxes more than cc. I don't follow the logic in doing this.

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Rational


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Thinker - Go have a cup of coffe and put your thinking cap on, please.

It is either going to be a Megachurch and a cc school or an RT school. Make your choice. And no, an RT school will have nowhere near the IMPACT that cc will have. Compare 20,000 circus attendees added to their K-5 school to a few hundred RT school children in terms of attendance. There is just no comparison there! What could you possibly have been thinking, thinker?

---------------------------------------------------------

It is interesting that Weinstein seems to have converted back to cc christianity again. Too bad he can not find the solice that he needs in the religion of his heritage. Or, maybe it has something to do with money.

Don't ya just love a man having such strong faith and convictions?










-- Edited by Rational at 08:30, 2006-09-16

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THINKER


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Put yours on. Still need lights. Have to clean up the site. More traffic. Taxes raised more than with cc. Seems like the same deal. No win for RT. Only costing more.

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Rational


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RT is going to need a school no matter what. Where do you propose to put it, bud? And do you seriously think that a 20,000 person megachurch is going to have less IMPACT than a local public school? After all, the entire population of RT is about equal to the anticipated size of cc. Guess that you have not done the math.

Thinker, you are embarassing yourself but do not realize it. Go chill out before you make another post else everyone in town will be laughing at you with your ill logic.



-- Edited by Rational at 08:28, 2006-09-16

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THINKER


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Let's not talk about "embarrassing" ourselves. You've done quite enough of that. Do you know what the traffic would be like in the mornings? People would still lose their businesses because of the light. Taxes would sky rocket. All the things we claim cc would do to RT would still happen, but we'd be paying a much higher price.

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rockres23yrs


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I doubt that the construction of a new school would involve the underground parking issue that CC brings. Nor will it cause as much traffic. Nor will it be as difficult to control and predict future growth.

Additionally, there is no loss of tax revenue if one acquires property that is tax exempt such as 140 GPR would be. The other potential sites for a new school would almost certainly be present or future contributors to the tax base.

Some friends of ours upon driving to our home were wondering what 140 GPR was and thought it looked like a school. I told them that it wasn't currently a school but that it might be someday. I think their comments underscore the fact that the buildings and grounds are probably well suited for conversion to a school. It would be difficult to imagine why it would not be cheaper to convert this building to a new school rather than building one from scratch.

I think it's time for RT to become proactive and do the right thing for its residents. The choice between a project that is too large for the area and which would cause environmental, traffic, and infrastructure problems versus a needed school should be an easy decision to make. Hopefully our public officials will do the right thing for Rockaway Township and not be intimidated by people that clearly don't have the best interests of the community at heart.

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GadFly


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IMHO, The school board needs to hire an OUTSIDE PROFESSIONAL firm to look at possible building sites and weigh the pros and cons of each.

No offense to the citizens who served on the site committee, but before our township spends tens of millions of dollars, we should get a professional opinion from someone not affiliated with Rockaway Township.

Also - if the decision is to take 140 GPR by eminent domain, we should have a professional firm backing up that decision. It could come in handy during 2 or 3 of the many lawsuits that Mister ireland will file.

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Lisa Salberg


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The committee run by the BOE was very limited in scope and it was done under an administration that was not looking at the reality of our future. The entire process was not well organized and had no impact on solutions. While it was well intentioned it became quickly obvious that it was not going to yield a solution. We saw that first hand 3 years ago.
What needs to be done now is investigation without fear. Tough questions need to be addressed and real solutions drafted. What is clear is that we will need more educational services in the township very soon. There is no land that is perfect for building that is available in town (water, sewers, roadways are all issues).

There is also the question of inefficient use of space at this time. We have a board office building, a facilities building, bus garage, and 6 schools and a few pieces of land. If anything can be done to consolidate services it would be a good idea to look at these issues now.

We will need additional space and there are oppurtunities to merge services under one roof. If so we could limit the cost of overhead in terms of building infrastructure, shared staff, lower energy costs and add to efficiency all around.

There is not a simple answer here but one thing is clear - ALL OPTIONS MUST be fairly evaluated without bias or fear.

Lisa


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The truth wins out over slick PR and personal attacks. The Christ Church Plan for the redevelopment of 140 Green Pond Rd is just too big for the area.
Rational


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To me, the following is very clear when I read between the lines in that newspaper article. I think that Mayer Sceusi is giving us a heads up. The way that I read it is that he knows that the planning board is going to approve cc. I doubt his own personal vote will be favorable to cc, but he likely knows what the total vote tally will be.

I conclude that this is Sceusi's way of focusing our attention on a plan B in order to kill two birds with one stone. There is no other real option for us here, unless you don't care if this town becomes completely overrun and wrecked by outsiders who could care less about RT.

ps - Thinker, I am not the least bit embarassed by my behaviour on this issue. I have continually called the shots correctly throughout this ugly process. Have you?



-- Edited by Rational at 10:56, 2006-09-16

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THINKER


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Rational do yourself and everyone else a favor-get over yourself. You have caused more trouble for RT than any help you haven't given.

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Rational


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Yeah, right! I was the guy that discoverd that ireland would not cap membership at 25,000, or did you forget that? Do you realize that nobody else in town, not the lawyers nor the board members not anyone else was able to extract that information?

Yes, you are welcome for that. It is very KEY information to have when considering the applicant and his plans.

Now, pray tell us - - - what have you done bud?

And yes, I still find it extremely distasteful that a church of 20 to 25 thousand people want to move into town who hold the basic belief that Jews like myself who have not found Christ are all going to hell. Why is that so hard for you to understand, bud?

Who is the bigot? Me or ireland and his perverse thinking? The answer is obvious.

-- Edited by Rational at 11:14, 2006-09-16

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THINKER


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And if 140 became a school there would be a bigger need for more busses. You can't have kids walking on GPR. More reason taxes would go up and up.

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Rational


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Interesting to see that you have become a "christ church convert". Obviously, if you were given the choice between an RT school to be located there or to have a cc school and circus there you would opt for the latter.

Fascinating and totally Wacky!

Res ipsa loquitur



-- Edited by Rational at 12:40, 2006-09-16

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Rational


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Here is something to ponder:

Clowns Circus originally wanted to build a 412,000 square foot facility. Continental Arena in the Meadowlands is 447,552 square feet in size and seats a little more than 19,000 people for a Hockey game. St. Peters Basilica in Rome (the seat of the Roman Catholic Church) is around the same size as cc's plans.

Now, ask yourselves, just how many chairs can he really put in that so called sanctuary? Is it 2,500 as he says, or is it more like 5,000 or so?

Hmph!







-- Edited by Rational at 13:54, 2006-09-16

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JohnQ


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Lisa nailed it on the head. I have a feeling mr ireland is going to need plenty of alka-celtzer in the near future.

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Momof3


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Why would there be a need for more busses? The children would be transported to this school or another one someplace else.

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Rational


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Momof3 -

I do not think that thinker is thinking today.

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THINKER


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Oh, I guess there are no walkers to any of the schools in RT. Maybe that's something to consider, a school where many of the students will be walkers. But no one ever thinks about cutting back on anything. I just don't understand how a school will be less an assault on traffic, taxes or the businesses on GPR. Residents of RT voted down the school budget for a reason. No, I'm not a convert to cc. But I find that a school will present the same problems. More so cause it will effect rush hour traffic everyday. Makes me wonder if the reasons why some are anti cc aren't for the wrong reasons.

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rockres23yrs


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Thinker - would the school need to excavate millions of cubic feet of soil like the CC plan envisions? would the school benefit our children or worshippers from distant towns? would having a better educational system enhance property values and conversely would having a sunday traffic mess hurt property values? I'm sorry but I just don't understand your logic on this. Let's do the right thing for Rockaway Township and not let others intimidate us into making a choice that clearly is not the best thing for our community. I believe that the needs of the many should outweigh the greed of the few.

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GadFly


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On the issue of busses, if the school bus depot remains where it is - just above KDM on GPR, school busses would be passing by 140 GPR both to and from any other likely school location / bus stops, wherever a new school is built in the township.

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Momof3


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The only school that has walkers is Birchwood. The other schools provide bussing, some children just decide to walk. Birchwood doesnt have hundreds of children that walk.Most of fleetwood could be walkers but there are no continuing sidewalks from peterson to the school. Courtesy bussing never works anyhow. Just watch Parsippany it will revert back to bussing just as Denville did.

Also if they did make room for a transportation dept at the site, it would save taxpayers the rent that is paid to the road dept and 10 minutes driving time each bus does from that site to the depot.You figure there are probably 40 or so busses, each travels up and down greenpond 4 times a day, you talking alot of fuel.They would have get approval to put a gas pump in at the site and a small garage to work on busses. Plus maintainance could be there then the building by meriden and greenpond wouldnt be needed. Also if the board wanted to be there as well, another building and property not needed. It is a big site with lots of options. I just dont see how the town could get it by emminant domain..

-- Edited by Momof3 at 16:49, 2006-09-16

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Momof3


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-- Edited by Momof3 at 16:51, 2006-09-16

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Rational


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Thinker,

Explain why irelands school is OK but Rockaway Townships is not OK? Don't try to evade that one and directly answer the question!

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THINKER


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Except for the moving of soil, I don't see how a school would be any different than the mess that cc will bring. Property values go up, so do taxes. People will be leaving RT just as they are leaving the state. With all that land there, what will go there beside a school? More RT departments-more traffic. If RT wants to make it a high school, what about all the money that's been put into MK for renovations? Busses slowing and entering and exiting GPR non stop in the mornings will bring havoc to the ONLY road in and out of the northern section of town everyday. What about lights. The same problems that it would bring if cc was there. And all those busses on that site, what about contamination of our water supply? Everyone knows about emissions coming from a bus. I really don't see how putting a school there would be any better than having cc there. I realize it would be for RT whereas cc would not. But we are paying way too much in taxes for getting almost nothing. And do we really need another school?

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Rational


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Quoting Momof3:

"I just dont see how the town could get it by emminant domain.."

---------------------------------------------

I just do not see how the town could not get it by eminent domain. It is the right of the township to do so and nothing that ireland could do could stop it.

The laws pertaining to eminent domain go back to the founding of this country and are extremely well tested in the courts. ED will not be overturned

On the other hand, RLUIPA does not stand a prayer against ED as it is completely untested. ED will aways take precidence over RLUIPA or any other crazy scheme like it.




-- Edited by Rational at 17:02, 2006-09-16

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Rational


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Thinker,

Let's try this one again. I will not stop until I get an answer. Kay?

Here it is again,



Explain why irelands school is OK but Rockaway Townships is not OK? Don't try to evade that one and directly answer the question!


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Lisa Salberg


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One other factor that has to be balanced is intensity of use of the entire property. At its max HP had between 800 and 1000 employees on 2-3 shifts. On site at anyone time the average number was about 600. To maintain an intensity of use that is no greater than the past is part of what the Highlands Act is attempting to control.

A very large concern and one key reason for much of the opposition is the demolition, altering the foundation, digging underground, and the building of a new structure. If a use could be retro fitted to the exsisting structure that would help to protect the environment.

If someone opens that foundation we have NO IDEA what will happen next. There have been no core samples taken because you can not get to them as they are under the foundation. If the foundation stays in tack the contaminates are contained an per discussions I have had with leading environmentalist that is how they would prefer to see it. The other option would be to raze the entire building and return it to the wetlands it was prior to the unlawful filling of the property by HP.

This entire matter needs careful evaluation so that a good choice is made for the future of the entire community.

Lisa


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The truth wins out over slick PR and personal attacks. The Christ Church Plan for the redevelopment of 140 Green Pond Rd is just too big for the area.
rockres23yrs


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Just a question. Does anyone know if it is proper to include the amount of the taxes lost if a site other than 140 GPR is selected in the calculations comparing alternatives? As a taxpayer this is a large issue for me. As a church, there is no lost tax revenue in acquiring the site by eminent domain since the site would not be taxable. On the other hand, an alternative site would most likely be taxable if not selected for a school and therefore there is a cost related to those lost taxes. Does anyone know if this would enter into the evaluation of alternatives?

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