WATERTOWN, N.Y. (Aug. 21) - The minister of a church that dismissed a female Sunday School teacher after adopting what it called a literal interpretation of the Bible says a woman can perform any job - outside of the church.
The First Baptist Church dismissed Mary Lambert on Aug. 9 with a letter explaining that the church had adopted an interpretation that prohibits women from teaching men. She had taught there for 54 years.
The letter quoted the first epistle to Timothy: "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent."
The Rev. Timothy LaBouf, who also serves on the Watertown City Council, issued a statement saying his stance against women teaching men in Sunday school would not affect his decisions as a city leader in Watertown, where all five members of the council are men but the city manager who runs the city's day-to-day operations is a woman.
"I believe that a woman can perform any job and fulfill any responsibility that she desires to" outside of the church, LaBouf wrote Saturday.
Mayor Jeffrey Graham, however, was bothered by the reasons given Lambert's dismissal.
"If what's said in that letter reflects the councilman's views, those are disturbing remarks in this day and age," Graham said. "Maybe they wouldn't have been disturbing 500 years ago, but they are now."
Lambert has publicly criticized the decision, but the church did not publicly address the matter until Saturday, a day after its board met.
In a statement, the board said other issues were behind Lambert's dismissal, but it did not say what they were.
Since we know that a certain "Rational" member of this board is interested when women's rights are denied by religious groups, I'm sure he'll be very interested in the following story, as will the many other members here who are always quick to point out the "intolerant" acts of Fundamentalist Christians.
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Woman beaten on Jerusalem bus for refusing to move to rear seat
By Daphna Berman
A woman who reported a vicious attack by an ad-hoc "modesty patrol" on a Jerusalem bus last month is now lining up support for her case and may be included in a petition to the High Court of Justice over the legality of sex-segregated buses.
Miriam Shear says she was traveling to pray at the Western Wall in Jerusalem's Old City early on November 24 when a group of ultra-Orthodox (Haredi) men attacked her for refusing to move to the back of the Egged No. 2 bus. She is now in touch with several legal advocacy and women's organizations, and at the same time, waiting for the police to apprehend her attackers.
In her first interview since the incident, Shear says that on the bus three weeks ago, she was slapped, kicked, punched and pushed by a group of men who demanded that she sit in the back of the bus with the other women. The bus driver, in response to a media inquiry, denied that violence was used against her, but Shear's account has been substantiated by an unrelated eyewitness on the bus who confirmed that she sustained an unprovoked "severe beating."
Shear, an American-Israeli woman who currently lives in Canada, says that on a recent five-week vacation to Israel, she rode the bus daily to the Old City to pray at sunrise. Though not defined by Egged as a sex-segregated "mehadrin" bus, women usually sit in the back, while men sit in the front, as a matter of custom.
"Every two or three days, someone would tell me to sit in the back, sometimes politely and sometimes not," she recalled this week in a telephone interview. "I was always polite and said 'No. This is not a synagogue. I am not going to sit in the back.'"
But Shear, a 50-year-old religious woman, says that on the morning of the 24th, a man got onto the bus and demanded her seat - even though there were a number of other seats available in the front of the bus.
"I said, I'm not moving and he said, 'I'm not asking you, I'm telling you.' Then he spat in my face and at that point, I was in high adrenaline mode and called him a son-of-a-bitch, which I am not proud of. Then I spat back. At that point, he pushed me down and people on the bus were screaming that I was crazy. Four men surrounded me and slapped my face, punched me in the chest, pulled at my clothes, beat me, kicked me. My snood [hair covering] came off. I was fighting back and kicked one of the men in his privates. I will never forget the look on his face."
Shear says that when she bent down in the aisle to retrieve her hair covering, "one of the men kicked me in the face. Thank God he missed my eye. I got up and punched him. I said, 'I want my hair covering back' but he wouldn't give it to me, so I took his black hat and threw it in the aisle."
'Stupid American'
Throughout the encounter, Shear says the bus driver "did nothing." The other passengers, she says, blamed her for not moving to the back of the bus and called her a "stupid American with no sechel [common sense.] People blamed me for not knowing my place and not going to the back of the bus where I belong."
According to Yehoshua Meyer, the eyewitness to the incident, Shear's account is entirely accurate. "I saw everything," he said. "Someone got on the bus and demanded that she go to the back, but she didn't agree. She was badly beaten and her whole body sustained hits and kicks. She tried to fight back and no one would help her. I tried to help, but someone was stopping me from getting up. My phone's battery was dead, so I couldn't call the police. I yelled for the bus driver to stop. He stopped once, but he didn't do anything. When we finally got to the Kotel [Western Wall], she was beaten badly and I helped her go to the police."
Shear says that when she first started riding the No. 2 line, she did not even know that it was sometimes sex-segregated. She also says that sitting in the front is simply more comfortable. "I'm a 50-year-old woman and I don't like to sit in the back. I'm dressed appropriately and I was on a public bus."
"It is very dangerous for a group of people to take control over a public entity and enforce their will without going through due process," she said. "Even if they [Haredim who want a segregated bus] are a majority - and I don't think they are - they have options available. They can petition Egged or hire their own private line. But as long as it's a public bus, I don't care if there are 500 people telling me where to sit. I can sit wherever I want and so can anyone else."
Meyer says that throughout the incident, the other passengers blamed Shear for not sitting in the back. "They'll probably claim that she attacked them first, but that's totally untrue. She was abused terribly, and I've never seen anything like it."
Word of Shear's story traveled quickly after she forwarded an e-mail detailing her experience. She has been contacted by a number of groups, including Shatil, the New Israel Fund's Empowerment and Training Center for Social Change; Kolech, a religious women's forum; the Israel Religious Action Center (IRAC), the legal advocacy arm of the local Reform movement; and the Jewish Orthodox Feminist Alliance (JOFA).
In the coming month, IRAC will be submitting a petition to the High Court of Justice against the Transportation Ministry over the issue of segregated Egged buses. IRAC attorney Orly Erez-Likhovski is in touch with Shear and is considering including her in the petition.
Although the No. 2 Jerusalem bus where the incident occurred is not actually defined as a mehadrin line, Erez-Likhovski says that Shear's story is further proof that the issue requires legal clarification. About 30 Egged buses are designated as mehadrin, mostly on inter-city lines, but they are not marked to indicate this. "There's no way to identify a mehadrin bus, which in itself is a problem," she said.
"Theoretically, a person can sit wherever they want, even on a mehadrin line, but we're seeing that people are enforcing [the gender segregation] even on non-mehadrin lines and that's the part of the danger," she said.
On a mehadrin bus, women enter and exit through the rear door, and the seats from the rear door back are generally considered the "women's section." A child is usually sent forward to pay the driver.
The official responses
In a response from Egged, the bus driver denied that Shear was physically attacked in any way.
"In a thorough inquiry that we conducted, we found that the bus driver does not confirm that any violence was used against the complainant," Egged spokesman Ron Ratner wrote.
"According to the driver, once he saw that there was a crowd gathering around her, he stopped the bus and went to check what was going on. He clarified to the passengers that the bus was not a mehadrin line and that all passengers on the line are permitted to sit wherever they want on the bus. After making sure that the passengers returned to their seats, he continued driving."
The Egged response also noted that their drivers "are not able and are not authorized to supervise the behavior of the passengers in all situations."
Ministry of Transportation spokesperson Avner Ovadia said in response that the mehadrin lines are "the result of agreements reached between Egged and Haredi bodies" and are therefore unconnected to the ministry.
A spokesperson for the Jerusalem police said the case is still under investigation.
From what I can tell, this forum was set up for people in Rockaway Township, New Jersey. You do not live here; you live about 500 miles away.
You do not have a dog in this fight, unless ireland is your brother. So, why don't you just STFU a$$hole?
My prayer at this festive time of year:
May a Militant Extremist Islamic Mosque be constructed in your neighborhood. And when you and your neighbors protest it, may they sue your town under RLUIPA!
It appears the one of you posted about the actions of a religion in the USA and the other posted about the actions of citizens in a different county. One story has nothing to do with the other, with the one exception that there are still many men in the world who fear a woman snd feel they must act to belittle her (the global "her")
__________________
The truth wins out over slick PR and personal attacks.
The Christ Church Plan for the redevelopment of 140 Green Pond Rd is just too big for the area.
What I like about your response, Mr. Maier, is how you employ a vulgar acronym immediately followed by a prayer. This can't be what they teach you at Temple.
Lisa Salberg wrote: It appears the one of you posted about the actions of a religion in the USA and the other posted about the actions of citizens in a different county. One story has nothing to do with the other, with the one exception that there are still many men in the world who fear a woman snd feel they must act to belittle her (the global "her")
Both stories reveal extremist actions taken by two different religious groups. Obviously related, but Ms. Salberg's inability to comprehend this is understandable.
It must be pointed out that in the extreme Christian case, a woman's job was terminated. In the Jewish case, a woman was beaten.
But let's ask Craig if there are Jewish sects in this country that treat women differently from men...
What does puzzle me is why Mr. Maier's story was posted here at all? How are the actions of a church in NY state related to the business in Rockaway Township, NJ?
Now, Lisa, you didn't raise an objection when Mr. Maier posted his story, so maybe you can explain why it belongs on this board and how it relates to Rockaway Township.
Craig, (if that is who you really are behind this particular user name)
I question why you waited this long to respond to this thread. In particular taking an overseas newspaper article and posting it in a thread that is based in the United States. Even you should realize that things are far different overseas than in the US. One would further think if you had anything to say that you would have done so in August or perhaps even in September instead of waiting until the second half of December and right in the middle of the jewish holiday of Hanukah to post an untimely response. I guess that from your lack of a response when this thread was fresh means that you really had nothing on topic to add and only now are you grasping at straws in hopes of further stirring the religious pot for your own sick and demented reasons.
I suspect that Craig F's brother's idea of Heaven is when a customer purchases a season ticket to the skybox in his circus arena for 100 grand. What an inspirational character he is; truely a model of morality for the community that serves him.
Let's see, Mr. Bill has no response to my well crafted point so he suggests it's a bad point because it wasn't made within some "Bill imposed" timeline and that it occurred far away from where he lives. I've seen some pretty fancy dancing around the point Mr. Bill (if that's who you really are!) but your footwork is quite spectacular.
Now, as to Mr. Maier's point on church member donations, perhaps he could enlighten us as to what happens to his fellow religious members when they fail to make the required contributions to the Temple?
"Now, as to Mr. Maier's point on church member donations, perhaps he could enlighten us as to what happens to his fellow religious members when they fail to make the required contributions to the Temple?"
In my religion, it is considered to be a Mitzvah to give 10 percent of our earnings to charity. Charity is not specifically defined as the Temple that I attend, much unlike the ireland corporation. I donate a total of around 15 percent of my earnings to charity, with a small portion of that total going to my Shul.
Ireland demands 10 percent for himself (via his toy church); I guess he himself is the only worthy charity that he can identify for his ignorant flock of sheep to give to!
Now, STFU and crawl back under your rock, A$$hole.
CraigF wrote: Let's see, Mr. Bill has no response to my well crafted point so he suggests it's a bad point because it wasn't made within some "Bill imposed" timeline and that it occurred far away from where he lives. I've seen some pretty fancy dancing around the point Mr. Bill (if that's who you really are!) but your footwork is quite spectacular.
Now, as to Mr. Maier's point on church member donations, perhaps he could enlighten us as to what happens to his fellow religious members when they fail to make the required contributions to the Temple?
No need to suggest as it was a bad point posted in hopes that you would create more conflicts in which to feed off of. Well crafted, seems more like the same cut and paste to me, change a few words here and there and post away with the timing set just right as to try and inflame others. Your personal attack is what was expected and is now in the public eye for all to see.
But of course at this point in time we still do not know who we are dealing with, just someone who signed up here under the user name "CraigF". I find it quite strange that you were pushing for a "debate online" but now realize that when asked to have one live and face to face you stepped back from your soapbox and ran to hide because you were really not who we thought you were at that time. Funny how some people hide behind the web in hopes that their real identity is never found out. Well sir, in this case, that ball, as usual is in your court to prove just who you really are. Otherwise you could just as easily be Ted D. or Russ J, or maybe even Bill R. just playing another head game with the masses. Oh and before you try some witty comeback about my identity, there are several on this board who do know my full identity, it is only you who does not.
In closing, even religious zealots are wrong on occasion, the only problem is, they don't think so.
CraigF wrote: Let's see, Mr. Bill has no response to my well crafted point ...
It is clear that "craig" holds a very lofty opinion of himself, one I do not share. Your timing, your tone and your past deeds speak volumes. You seek trouble and dwell on anger. You are a sad person and one whom I pity.
In this time of "good will" toward men I will simply encorage you to find peace within as your anger and hate towards those with different religious beliefs is destructive.
Try to have a happy holiday season.
Sincerely, Lisa
__________________
The truth wins out over slick PR and personal attacks.
The Christ Church Plan for the redevelopment of 140 Green Pond Rd is just too big for the area.
Boy, you folks find it real easy to get way off the point. I do understand your need for that tactic, when you have no ability to logically debate the point made, personal insults, vulgar language, identity fishing all work well to try to stay off the subject. But let's get back to the point. Mr. Maier posted an article about extreme actions against a woman by a Christian church that appears to have no relation to Christ Church. I posted an article about extreme actions against a woman by Jews.
My challenge was for someone to point out why Maier's artcile belonged on this board.
After all your nonsense posts, you've all still failed to even step into the arena with something that looks like a valid rebuttal to this question.
We are not going to let some jerk from NC set the agenda for discussion up here in RT NJ.
So, let's talk about your A$$hole brother irelands extreme mistreatment of anyone who is not a member of his church Business as it pertains to his hiring practice.
Rational wrote: We are not going to let some jerk from NC set the agenda for discussion up here in RT NJ.
So, let's talk about your A$$hole brother irelands extreme mistreatment of anyone who is not a member of his church Business as it pertains to his hiring practice.
Now, STFU.
-- Edited by Rational at 10:22, 2006-12-22
The hiring practices of which you speak are those used by thousands of churches across this country. Even Christian colleges and private schools have similar requirements. The law on this is clear and rarely disputed except by fools with an ax to grind.
But by attempting to insult Mr. Ireland for this, you insult millions of Christians around the country, Mr. Maier. I realize this stance is nothing new for you, as many on this board on your side of the issue have pleaded with you to just shut up, even going as far as calling you names. I prefer to take a different track. You see, I believe there's hope for everyone. That's why I've never suggested that you cease your banter. So keep it up!
If churches engage in such practice, then crap on them. Besides, your brothers church is one in name only. As for the Jewish situation, I note the following:
1. A devout Roman Catholic friend of ours is the Administrator of a local Synagogue in this area.
2. The Shul to which I attend employs some folks who are not Jewish.
Don't you have enough legal problems down there in NC?
After all your nonsense posts, you've all still failed to even step into the arena with something that looks like a valid rebuttal. -- Edited by CraigF at 10:13, 2006-12-22
Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you and your posts. Your anger, bigotry, and hatred against all of NJ is well documented, why should anyone bother to give you any credibility here when in reality you have none. Once more your attempt to antagonize anyone here has failed. The really sad part about this is that you just don't see it the way everyone else does.
While you may hold ill will towards your fellow man, I do not and do wish you happy holidays. May they bring you some resemblance of sanity for a change.
Bill (and all the VORT supporters & lurkers here), May the never ending love of Jesus Christ (the Child born to die, the man who came to pay the price that none of us could ever pay, to give us the eternal life that none of us deserve or could ever earn) be with you all at this time of Christmas celebration and forever after.
How strange it is that you feel so full of yourself to spout off some resemblance of witty comeback. How sad it is that you feel that you have any credibility or that anyone living in the state of NJ will ever take anything you post online seriously. I'm certain in your own mind it actually makes sense and that you feel quite righteous in doing so. Vanity on your part has nothing to do with God, but everything to do with your self inflated ego.
As posted against your over the top posts by "MKmoralcompass" on the Daily Record forum.
"I know what I was taught and I know the basic teachings of all Christian based religions. I also know we have many common beliefs with those of other faiths. I can not see how any of the postings by those here defending a house of worship are displaying those morals and ethical teachings provided by a Christian upbringing. Those who call people names, mock people for speaking up, and threaten litigation on a regular basis are the farthest thing from Christians I have ever seen. "
Maybe it's time for you to take a good long look at yourself in a mirror and repeat what MKmoralcompass wrote over and over again until it sinks in and you come back to reality from your online fantasy world.
"Craig", Your attempt to hide your anger behind the teachings of Christ is beyond inappropriate. You have spent a good part of this year 'preaching' anger, hate and racism against those who disagree with YOUR position. You and those who fail to see how the actions of one mans wishes for a house of worship has a negative affect on an entire community are not living by the words of Christ. You think you hold some kind of ownership of Christianity but you do not. I am a Christian and always have been. Your attempt to twist a story about a beating of a woman in Israel is nothing more then attempt to villify Jews. Christ was a Jew. He would not approve of such actions, nor would most rational adults. Your attempt to liken the actions of a beating - to that of a womans inability to continue to teach in a Christian school clearly display your warped view of the world. If the minister had beaten the woman or the men on the bus has taken the employment/volunteer oppurtunity away from the woman that would be something that may be able to be compaired, however these events happened in different countrys with different laws and vastly different cultures. But these issues are obviously far to commplicated for you to understand.
I would suggest that you recall this weekend not how Christ died but how he lived. Regardless of your religious beliefs there is ample historical data that supports that the man Jesus Christ was a man of caring, giving and love and infact a learned Rabbi. Take some time to refelect on what it really means to be a Christian and you may find some of that peace you need.
Best wishes to all, Lisa
__________________
The truth wins out over slick PR and personal attacks.
The Christ Church Plan for the redevelopment of 140 Green Pond Rd is just too big for the area.
Rational wrote: If churches engage in such practice, then crap on them. Besides, your brothers church is one in name only. As for the Jewish situation, I note the following:
1. A devout Roman Catholic friend of ours is the Administrator of a local Synagogue in this area.
2. The Shul to which I attend employs some folks who are not Jewish.
Don't you have enough legal problems down there in NC?
Now, STFU A$$hole
Mr. Maier, Your memory may be failing you. You realize as well as I the ramifications of your statement: "Don't you have enough legal problems down there in NC?" Frankly, I was actually surprised that you would repeat something that you have no proof of. But in any case, you wrote it. I am giving you the chance to admit that you have no knowledge of my legal status. Please take advantage of this opportunity and save yourself bigger problems.
