Concerned Citizens - The "All Opinions are Welcome, but Sorry no Instigators" Board

Date: Tue May 18 8:57 PM, 2004

RE: Concerned Citizens

Date: Tue May 18 9:03 PM, 2004

Are you all saying that the school is merely a strategy to stop the church? I thought your mantra was Impact Infrastucture, Taxes and Traffic. I guess you all lied.

Back to the issue. Census projections are wrong and current overcrowding claims are the result of inappropriate calculations. Clearly we don't need a school but you all want to block the church by using any method avaiable to you. Sorry I can't help you but I can't lie or commit fraud. We simply don't need a school

Date: Tue May 18 9:14 PM, 2004

Ted, I've talked to the monster in the closet, he agrees. We should move to Montclair. Please take the money from that nice man and come back to bed. We really miss you!

Date: Tue May 18 9:22 PM, 2004

tED - time for another handful of meds - you are slurring in your posts, not your usual style partner...

Date: Tue May 18 10:01 PM, 2004

Ted

I assume at some point you will present facts that render the data used to determine a new school invalid?

No opinions or assumptions Ted, just facts. Do you have them. If so please post them here.

Thank you.

Date: Tue May 18 11:01 PM, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: BJR
"Ted I assume at some point you will present facts that render the data used to determine a new school invalid? No opinions or assumptions Ted, just facts. Do you have them. If so please post them here. Thank you."

It has already been done. At the last BOE meeting, the school architect admitted that the overcrowding statistic which evoked images of chilren being taught on folding chairs, in hallways was a funding formula and not a gauge of school capacity.

I used the demography report to prove that in the next five years Copeland's student population will reduce by 40 students. That stat was not disputed by anyone on the Board.

The Demography Report footnotes also detail the fact that water restrictions have halted the condo complex which is expected to swell student population

Board member Friedberger explained that the forcast numbers (472) were remarkably similar to those used 6 years ago but census increased only 119. Friedberger, to his credit, called for a close review of the demography report.

Carl Rupp, a community activist showed that taxes might rise as much as $350/year...I went with a lower figure of $200. Cost estimates developed by the architect, environmental expert and, eminent domain lawyer were used to calculate the tax impact.

What else do you need? Give me a call.

Date: Wed May 19 10:18 AM, 2004

Ted, the use of the word WE does not lend you any credibility. Who are WE?

By the way if a school will cause traffic problems 5 days per week with a few hundered students being BUSSES in...what will a MEGA-organization with a school of 500n kids being driven by car...evening adult meetings and 5000 people arriving on weekends do to traffic 7 days per week???

WE are waiting tED.

Date: Wed May 19 11:41 AM, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Define WE
"Ted, the use of the word WE does not lend you any credibility. Who are WE? By the way if a school will cause traffic problems 5 days per week with a few hundered students being BUSSES in...what will a MEGA-organization with a school of 500n kids being driven by car...evening adult meetings and 5000 people arriving on weekends do to traffic "

First of all most of the Concerned Citizen group wish to remain anonymous. Ithink you can understand that given recent events. But I assure you we are a grass roots citizen group, using private fudns.

My issue is the school, not the church but it seems that you are someone who believes building a school is an effective way to block Christ Church. I"m not a lawyer but I understand that use of the eminent domain law is illegal. I'll do some research on that for you.

The fact remains however, there are no statistics that support building a school.

Date: Wed May 19 11:46 AM, 2004

It is interesting that an expert in Eminent Domain Law has determined that it is legal. I guess that this lawyer should go back to law school now that the real expert has spoken.

Date: Wed May 19 11:52 AM, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Craig Maier
"It is interesting that an expert in Eminent Domain Law has determined that it is legal. I guess that this lawyer should go back to law school now that the real expert has spoken."

What may be illegal is to use eminent domain as a tool to block the church. Michael Patrick Carrol, a prominent atty. and member of the State Assemby indicated this in his comments about CC about a year ago.

Date: Wed May 19 12:00 PM, 2004

It was you who have suggested that eminent domain is going to be used to block the church. So what? I guess whatever Teddy thinks or says is true? Of course it is. Teddy is a legend in his own mind.

I see these things as two seperate and independent issues interconnected in now way whatsoever.

Watch out, Teddy, the bogey man is under your bed watching you!

Date: Wed May 19 12:12 PM, 2004

No i am not , ted never comes to bed anymore, i wish he would so we can discuss our move to montclair ,craig the monster in the closet wants to know if you would still sponsor our move.

Date: Wed May 19 12:39 PM, 2004

Ted,

It is quite sad that you have to use someone else's message board to be heard. You can not start one of your own. And yes this is the Rockaway Free Speech board, but get off it. Especially with your nonsense and ridiculous rants. Oh, and I will be sure to put Refused, Return to Sender, on the flyer. Just for the simple fact that if you have anything to do with it, it is just going to be a bunch of crap and what you believe to be "the facts". Get a life and stop wasting our time with your BS. And please, we are trying to protect the environment, not waste paper (trees) on a load of garbage.

Date: Wed May 19 1:27 PM, 2004

tED spit out:

Census projections are wrong and current overcrowding claims are the result of inappropriate calculations. Clearly we don't need a school but you all want to block the church by using any method avaiable to you.

Pardon me tED. Are you trying to say that the current overcrowding that is VISIBLE at KDM is a result of calculations? Please calculate for me why there are now 4 different classes at all the younger ages, when there were only 3 before. Please calculate why my child has 'art on a cart' because his classroom is now being used for one of those younger groups. There is REAL overcrowding at KDM - nothing calculated about it.

Date: Wed May 19 1:49 PM, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by: KDM Parent
" Are you trying to say that the current overcrowding that is VISIBLE at KDM is a result of calculations?

Not at all. Debbie Minenna reported that the district is overcrowded by 451 students. At the last BOE meeting it was revealed that the calculation used is a funding formula that has nothing to do with school capacity.

Please calculate for me why there are now 4 different classes at all the younger ages, when there were only 3 before. Please calculate why my child has 'art on a cart' because his classroom is now being used for one of those younger groups. There is REAL overcrowding at KDM."

KDM's overcrowding is a localized problem that can be resolved by redistricting or reconfiguring local schools. when Stony Brook added 10 clasrooms5 years ago, space was created at KDM by moving some children there. it takes creativity to resolve these local problems, but it can be done and there is room

Fact is that the last referendum buit 20 new classrooms but student population only grew by 119 since those rooms were built. At 20 kids per class, only six of these rooms have been filled. You raise a good question, maybe you should ask a board member why your child has art on a cart.

Date: Wed May 19 5:25 PM, 2004

ted, do us all a favor...wheel yourself into a ditch.

Date: Wed May 19 5:51 PM, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Ted Doty
"Fact is that the last referendum buit 20 new classrooms but student population only grew by 119 since those rooms were built."

And how overcrowded were the schools by the time those classrooms went in? Were those classrooms total surplus at the time - meant only for new students in the next 5 years, or did they help alleviate some of the existing overcrowding?

Date: Wed May 19 7:12 PM, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by: KDM Parent
" And how overcrowded were the schools by the time those classrooms went in?

I not trying to be nasty, really I'm not but I told you the truth. Over the last 5 years we added 20 rooms and saw an increase of 119 students. The census figures are from the demography report commissioned by the BOE. If you'd like a copy give me a call.

Were those classrooms total surplus at the time - meant only for new students in the next 5 years, or did they help alleviate some of the existing overcrowding?"

The configuration of those rooms is up to administration. So is the assignment of students but there is room

Date: Wed May 19 7:36 PM, 2004

In all fairness I schould tell you that there was a census "bubble" in the 4th grade at Stony Brook at the time. Those kids are now in the 8th grade and will be leaveing.

Also,there were dire predictions of a population explosion which never happened. Infact Copelands census is expected to decrease over the next five years(per the BOE commissioned report).

Date: Wed May 19 10:34 PM, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Ted Doty
"Were those classrooms total surplus at the time - meant only for new students in the next 5 years, or did they help alleviate some of the existing overcrowding?"

The configuration of those rooms is up to administration. So is the assignment of students but there is room "

tED - you ignored my question - a habit you seem to have picked up from all your conversations with others. I asked you if the new classrooms were for new students or if in fact the schools were already overcrowded (as I KNOW Copeland was) at the time. The point being that those brand new classrooms were full the day they were built - with NO new students, because the schools were already overcrowded....But what do you talk about - configuration by administration? I know you're not a dummy, so you must have chosen to ignore my question and just spew rhetoric.

Date: Thu May 20 8:03 AM, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by: KDM Parent
"I asked you if the new classrooms were for new students or if in fact the schools were already overcrowded (as I KNOW Copeland was) at the time. The point being that those brand new classrooms were full the day they were built - with NO new students, because the schools were already overcrowded....

Well I was a Board Member during the time of the last expansion. The schools were not over crowded. There were some local problems with homerooms of about 24 kids but with "pullouts" and such, academic classes were much smaller.

Further the Class sizes in Copeland were not overcorwded either. However,we were told that they were, by administration. The only example ever given for overcrowded classroom was gym class and I think most would expect such a class to be a bit larger.

The Board discussed, in closed session the potential of reconfiguring (redistricting) which would have resolved the "problem" but the superentendent made a case for neighborhood schools. He underscored his opinion by a threat of redistricting and chose a few very vocal residents to redistrict...he won and we built.

You're a logical person and I'm sure you see that "Bricks and Mortar" has a diadvantage in that it's not mobile, like populations. So if you buy into the neighborhood school, the solution to local overcrowding can only be construction and you end up with under utilized schools when the poulation shifts once again.

I tried to convey this message in a less wordy manner but I guess it didn't work. Sorry

Date: Thu May 20 6:49 PM, 2004

Dear KDM parent,

What happened? You were airing your concerns and we were having, what I thought was, an excellent discussion of the issues.

Date: Thu May 20 7:23 PM, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Ted Doty
"Dear KDM parent, What happened? You were airing your concerns and we were having, what I thought was, an excellent discussion of the issues. "

Sorry Ted, I don't live on the internet...I wasn't sitting there waiting for your reply...Things like work...family...planning board meetings all take my time.

Further the Class sizes in Copeland were not overcorwded either. However,we were told that they were, by administration. The only example ever given for overcrowded classroom was gym class and I think most would expect such a class to be a bit larger.

So no - We are told by administration that Copeland WAS overcrowded. We are told by you that it was not. Why should I choose to believe you over the people who were in the school everyday? Frankly, why should a gym class be expected to be overcrowded? No class should be overcrowded. I spent a few days working at Copeland about 7 years ago. I was there over weekends. What I saw surprised me. There were classrooms with dividers running down the center and desks pushed very close together on either side. You could easily hear what was going on in the "other classroom". To my eye, this was a clear sign of overcrowding. Before the renovation, what time did lunch start and end at Copeland. The cafeteria was clearly overcrowded too...So we had overcrowded gyms, cafeterias, and divided classrooms. That was proof enough to me to believe Copeland was overcrowded...As a KDM parent - I can say that KDM at the time was NOT overcrowded. There were 3 sections of every grade. There was an art room. There was a music room. There were rooms for OT and PT...Most of the 'extra' space at KDM is now gone - taken by the overcrowded classrooms.

I can only speak from my own experience (Copeland & KDM) - can't speak for the other schools....

Date: Thu May 20 7:45 PM, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by: KDM Parent
" Sorry Ted, I don't live on the internet...I wasn't sitting there waiting for your reply...Things like work...family...planning board meetings all take my time.

I was only asking, please don' get upset

We are told by administration that Copeland WAS overcrowded. We are told by you that it was not. Why should I choose to believe you over the people who were in the school everyday? Frankly, why should a gym class be expected to be overcrowded? No class should be overcrowded.

Copeland did have a luchroom problem but it's average class size was 30. Plase remember these are homeroom numbers, not regular class sizes. Also keep in mind that we're talking about middle school kids and a class size of 30 is not overwhelming.

So we had overcrowded gyms, cafeterias, and divided classrooms. That was proof enough to me to believe Copeland was overcrowded...

The cafeteria problem has been resolved and Copeland's student census is dropping...plus they have ten new rooms and a gym

As a KDM parent - I can say that KDM at the time was NOT overcrowded. There were 3 sections of every grade. There was an art room. There was a music room. There were rooms for OT and PT...Most of the 'extra' space at KDM is now gone - taken by the overcrowded classrooms. I can only speak from my own experience (Copeland & KDM) - can't speak for the other schools...."

I think this is the point I've been trying to make. We know there space yet there are reports of overcrowding at KDM. I think you and other parents should ask questions and question the answers

Date: Thu May 20 8:23 PM, 2004

Ted, you sound so diplomatic! Really putting in some effort there. Nice!

Date: Thu May 20 9:58 PM, 2004

Oh tED, you are really on a roll the last few weeks - have you been eating your Flutie Flakes??

How are things in bizzaro world?

You can spin all you want, we know we can reduce you to your lowest common denominator - a frustrated, wannabe relevant a-hole, with a superiority complex.

Folks - just because the "almighty tURD" states something for fact, trust in this:

"Believe in none of what you hear, and half of what you see". Good words to live by.

p.s. tED - they ARE out there...

Date: Fri May 21 9:25 AM, 2004

It makes me feel great. I've received phone calls, letters and email in response to the Concerned Citizens letter; all positive. Then I sign onto this bb to find a deluge of attempts to malign our effort. Clearly a school is not needed and the facts presented by Concerned Citizens can't be disputed.

The forces that are promoting a school (for whatever reason) can't dazzle with brilliance, so they attempt to baffle with...well you know the rest. Like I said, I feel great.

Date: Sun May 23 12:08 PM, 2004

Still waiting...

2197. Hi Ted--
by mrsstark1127, 5/23/04 13:06 ET

Ted, enjoying your 15 minutes of fame? You must be in your glory--suddenly you're such a nice guy!

Still wondering about your response to my question about the VORT group [who opposes Christ Church's proposed move to Rockaway], whom you so gleefully villify...

__________________________

Originally posted by: Ted Doty

"Just received another positive call [regarding the letter sent to residents about Concerned Citizens for Sensible Spending in Education]. There is a rule of thumb about such response. That is if one person responds there's about twenty more people who feel the same way"

__________________________________

Ted, I haven't looked over the board entirely yet today so this may have been answered, although somehow I doubt it.

If your rule of thumb (above) stands true, how does that reflect upon the many people who respond to VORT's notification that this church behemoth is planning to move here?

If 800+ people showed up at even just that ONE meeting (They didn't call or e-mail--they actually drove to Copeland to sit in a hot school cafeteria all night), that means for each of them there are 20 who feel the same way?

Date: Sun May 23 12:23 PM, 2004

Ted,

You are so focused on building you have seemed to completely ignore the issues surounding QUALITY education.

I had kids in Copeland in the mid 1990's - YES it was over crowded - the class sizes were maxed out and this lead to a lack of attention to students in need of special attention and on the edge. The expansions made were needed due to REAL OVER CROWDING - not a numbers game.

Now you are sticking your nose into a matter that you obviously do not understand. Have not you caused enough problems for the BOE - havent you cost use all enough money with your useless law suits.

The demographics are ESTIMATES you seem to be very focused on "what is they are over estimates" - I suggest we need to worry about what if they are UNDER ESTIMATES.

I for one am not interested in redistricting those at the north end of town -- these people pay the same tax rate as other parts of town and get no water/sewer services, not you want the kids to be bussed all over town... because YOU think the town has no need for a school.

You did not address a question above that I thought was very important - what about the traffic?? You had stated past posts that CC - would not be a traffic problem...now you are stating that a K-5 Rockaway Twp school would create a traffic problem on green pond rd. - please explain yourself???

Date: Sun May 23 3:11 PM, 2004

I agree that there was a lunchroom problem and gym classes that were doubled up but that was the early 90s. Since that time, we've built a entire new wing, expanded the gym and lunchrooms and we only increase 119 students district wide...and the Copeland census is dropping.

As far as not understanding, I was involved with the BOE since before any of the current members had even attended a meeting. As for the "useless lawsuits", allow me to correct you. They were ethics complaints and they were far from useless. Most Copeland parents will agree that the board is controlled by the teachers.

Your concern about the estimates being low is one thing but it appears they're completely fictious.

Regarding the traffic, the school will burden our roads throughout the work week, at rush hour.

The North end problem is real but a couple of decades of zoning changes, open space sales and acreage restrictions for home building (all good things) have created the current problem. But look at the bright side; all the limitations will restrict future growth and eliminate the need for more schools