Anybody read the Citizen rag today? - The "All Opinions are Welcome, but Sorry no Instigators" Board

Date: Wed Apr 28 10:33 AM, 2004

Anybody read the Citizen rag today?

Date: Wed Apr 28 1:06 PM, 2004

Could you summarize what they said in the Citizen? Thankx!

Date: Wed Apr 28 1:34 PM, 2004

Actually this sounds like a very good recap of exactly what happened.

ROCKAWAY TWP- Convening at Morris Knolls High School, with an audience of less than a 100 people, the Planning Board, on Wednesday, April 21, continued to hear debate on whether Christ Church fits the zoning code definition of church and if it is an issue that matters in terms of approving the church plans.

The board continued to hear testimony at its fifth meeting on an application by Montclair-based Christ Church to build a campus facility on the 107-acre Agilent property off Green Pond Road.

!

The church wants to build a 3,000 seat sanctuary, a grade K-5 Christian elementary school, and recreational facilities that include a gym and ball fields on the former Agilent site. The gym and recreational facilities will be made available to township residents.

The Planning Board heard testimony from Richard Preiss, a licensed planner and real estate consultant hired by Voices of Rockaway, who told the board he didn’t think a mega-church would be permitted under Rockaway Township’s zoning laws. Planning Board Attorney William Dimin had asked Preiss, whether RLUIPA (Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act) would affect the board if the board defined a church.

Preiss told Dimin that insofar as interpretation of the ordinance, he thought RLUIPA would have no impact at all, and Preiss defined a megachurch by the number of weekly worshippers despite the fact the Rockaway Township zoning ordinance does not distinguish about the size of churches, which are permitted as conditional use in the OBRL (Office Business Research Laboratory ) zone.

Wendy Berger, the attorney hired by Christ Church, asked Preiss, “Have you done any analysis of how many worshippers go to any other religious facilities in this town or in any other town?”

“I have not done that with any other town, but I did review information collected by my client, within this town,” replied Preiss.

“You told me a mega-church depends upon the number of weekly attendees, so how many weekly attendees are there in the other churches in this town?” asked Berger.

Preiss could not give Berger a specific number.

Berger asked Preiss about other uses permitted by the ordinance in the OBRL zone.

Preiss told Berger offices and research facilities are permitted by the ordinance in the OBRL zone and Berger responded by saying, “Anything to prevent 2,000 or 5,000 office workers on a weekly basis?”

Preiss responded, “No.”

“So there’s nothing to prohibit mega-offices?” asked Berger.

“No,” stated Preiss, who also said, “But there are no mega-offices.”

“Have you done research on this, as well?” Berger asked Preiss.

Preiss indicated he had not done research on mega-offices.

Preiss stated that accessory uses may create a greater impact than other uses in a zone, and he spoke about problems with small lots.

“Do we have a problem here with a small lot?” asked Berger.

“No,” said Preiss.

“Is there any type of use in the whole ordinance that limits the number of people who can attend (the church)?” Berger asked Preiss.

“No, there is not,” stated Preiss.

When Preiss stated that he didn’t think the Rockaway Township ordinance permitted a mega-church in the town, Berger asked Preiss if he ever represented other churches that didn’t fall within the interpretation of an ordinance.

“I don’t think so,” said Preiss.

Berger then reminded Preiss that in April of 2003 he had testified before the zoning Board of Adjustment in Bedminster Township on behalf of a church that wanted to expand their facility to accommodate office space, a school, gymnasium and book store.

“On April 23, 2003 when you testified before the board of adjustment, you found that a general definition of a church was in your favor,” Berger told Preiss.

“That church was considered to be a non-traditional church,” stated Preiss.

“Why was it (non-traditional)?” asked Berger.

“You can go back and read it,” said Preiss.

“I will,” stated Berger, who proceeded to read aloud from documents pertaining to that case. Berger said, “In that case they were expanding to use it for office space, a school, and it was an inherently beneficial use.” Berger also reminded Preiss that the non-traditional church Preiss was referring to also didn’t comply with that township’s laws.

Berger read from those documents that the chairman of that board mentioned a gymnasium and a book store as accessory uses.

“You said many religious institutions have social halls,’’ Berger reminded Preiss.

“You said recreational, social, school purposes all fall under protection by statutes,” Berger also reminded Preiss, who still tried to defend his position.

Berger was also able to get Preiss to state that RLUIPA provides that towns can’t discriminate against churches and that land use regulations have to treat religious institutions the same way as other institutions.

When Berger asked Preiss if he had seen any ordinance define the word “megachurch,” Preiss said no.

Planning Board member Mayor Louis Sceusi also questioned Preiss at the April 21 meeting by saying, “Would you agree the standard church congregation usually emigrates from the community itself?”

Preiss indicated about 80 percent of congregants come from within the community.

“Have you studied the numbers in a standard church in the Rockaway Township community?’’ Sceusi also asked Preiss.

“I haven’t studied that,” stated Preiss.

“Doesn’t a megachurch change the quality of life in a zone?” asked Sceusi.

“I haven’t really studied that,” admitted Preiss.

Preiss also said a mega-church is not the same as a large church because it creates a level of intensity that is different from a church, despite the fact he had indicated to Berger that he did not have experience representing cases involving what he considered to be mega-churches or churches with more than 2,000 members.

During the public portion of the meeting, a resident asked whether the Planning Board is supposed to be the primary clearing house before the application goes to the Board of Adjustment.

“That’s not necessarily the case,” stated Preiss. “In this case, the zoning officer said this was a church, so it came before the Planning Board, which now has to make a decision,” added Preiss.

Speaking of the purpose of the Planning Board, the same resident said, “Is it not to treat all applications equal and fairly? I don’t see that happening (here) and I see this as a waste of time.”

Paradoxically, the same resident also said, “What would motivate the Planning Board to take on other problems from other communities?” This, despite the fact the church was seeking the new location because it was experiencing parking and building size limitations in Montclair, rather than imposing problems for that community.

Pieter Prall, a Meriden Road resident, asked Preiss, “If you have 1,000 people on Sunday and 100 come on Thursday, and 200 come on another night, does this boost the attendance factor?”

“Yes,” Preiss responded.

Referring to the OBRL zone, in which office buildings are permitted and which pertains to the Agilent site, township resident Gary Lewis asked Preiss, “There have been offices of multiple sizes going back to skyscrapers, so the writers of this ordinance understood there could be very large offices as opposed to small offices?”

“Correct,” responded Preiss.

Valley View Drive resident Dennis Haas asked Preiss, “Mega churches have greater negative impact than a normal church?”

“No, I didn’t say that,” responded Preiss. “When a church reaches a particular size, it has a significant impact and if it’s a zoning ordinance, there should be conditions related to that.”

Haas asked Preiss if traffic problems were considered when Preiss did his research.

“I didn’t look at the specific traffic studies that were done,” said Preiss.

During a five minute recess that evening, Marc Weinstein, a spokesperson for Christ Church, stated, “Christ Church is confident that its application will be approved and we believe the majority of Rockaway Township residents support the church’s plan to relocate to this community.”

“Christ Church is fully committed to being a valued member of Rockaway Township and will provide services that will significantly benefit both congregants and non-congregants in this community,” added Weinstein.

The Rev. David Ireland, the pastor of Christ Church, also spoke confidently at the meeting. “I’m still very positive - I think the land use laws are in our favor. The land use laws are very clear, and the Planning Board is bound to rule based on their own land-use laws,” said Ireland.

Ireland also commented about a study on mega churches conducted by Scott Thuma.

Data from Thuma’s study was mentioned by Preiss. “The primary purpose of the Thuma study deals with what goes on behind the scenes in large congregations and what church life is about, within a large congregation. His (Scott Thuma) study was never to deal with planning board laws, nor to define a church based on planning laws,” stated Ireland.

At the last hearing, held on Thursday, March 11, the board heard testimony from Peter Steck, a licensed planner and civil engineer from Maplewood hired by Christ Church, who was questioned by attorney Michael Edelson, who represented Voices of Rockaway, an opposition group who claim the church is too large.

Edelson had sought to prove the church’s size exceeded expectations of the original drafters of the township ordinance that provides for churches as conditional use in an OBRL zone (Office Business Research Laboratory).

At the March 11 meeting, when Edelson asked Steck if he thought some controls would be appropriate regarding the size of a church, Steck replied, “You can’t invent zoning conditions as you go along. You have to stand by your regulations.”

Planning Board Vice Chairman Arthur Crane had also questioned Steck on March 11, saying, “Could the board impose conditions on the applicant with regard to the church’s growth on the condition of not letting it get out of hand with the community?”

Steck had responded by saying, “I would call it an illegal plan.”

The next planning board hearing for Christ Church will be held at 8 p.m. on Wednesday, May 19, at Morris Knolls High School.

Date: Wed Apr 28 1:40 PM, 2004

Wow - among other things, Claudette needs to learn:

Grammar

How to count over 100!

Does anyone else find this article to be disjointed and very difficult to understand (not to mention one-sided)???

Church hearing continues with more debate on size

CLAUDETTE LEMERDY , Contributing Writer
04/28/2004

ROCKAWAY TWP- Convening at Morris Knolls High School, with an audience of less than a 100 people, the Planning Board, on Wednesday, April 21, continued to hear debate on whether Christ Church fits the zoning code definition of church and if it is an issue that matters in terms of approving the church plans.

The board continued to hear testimony at its fifth meeting on an application by Montclair-based Christ Church to build a campus facility on the 107-acre Agilent property off Green Pond Road.

!
The church wants to build a 3,000 seat sanctuary, a grade K-5 Christian elementary school, and recreational facilities that include a gym and ball fields on the former Agilent site. The gym and recreational facilities will be made available to township residents.

The Planning Board heard testimony from Richard Preiss, a licensed planner and real estate consultant hired by Voices of Rockaway, who told the board he didn’t think a mega-church would be permitted under Rockaway Township’s zoning laws. Planning Board Attorney William Dimin had asked Preiss, whether RLUIPA (Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act) would affect the board if the board defined a church.

Preiss told Dimin that insofar as interpretation of the ordinance, he thought RLUIPA would have no impact at all, and Preiss defined a megachurch by the number of weekly worshippers despite the fact the Rockaway Township zoning ordinance does not distinguish about the size of churches, which are permitted as conditional use in the OBRL (Office Business Research Laboratory ) zone.

Wendy Berger, the attorney hired by Christ Church, asked Preiss, “Have you done any analysis of how many worshippers go to any other religious facilities in this town or in any other town?”

“I have not done that with any other town, but I did review information collected by my client, within this town,” replied Preiss.

“You told me a mega-church depends upon the number of weekly attendees, so how many weekly attendees are there in the other churches in this town?” asked Berger.

Preiss could not give Berger a specific number.

Berger asked Preiss about other uses permitted by the ordinance in the OBRL zone.

Preiss told Berger offices and research facilities are permitted by the ordinance in the OBRL zone and Berger responded by saying, “Anything to prevent 2,000 or 5,000 office workers on a weekly basis?”

Preiss responded, “No.”

“So there’s nothing to prohibit mega-offices?” asked Berger.

“No,” stated Preiss, who also said, “But there are no mega-offices.”

“Have you done research on this, as well?” Berger asked Preiss.

Preiss indicated he had not done research on mega-offices.

Preiss stated that accessory uses may create a greater impact than other uses in a zone, and he spoke about problems with small lots.

“Do we have a problem here with a small lot?” asked Berger.

“No,” said Preiss.

“Is there any type of use in the whole ordinance that limits the number of people who can attend (the church)?” Berger asked Preiss.

“No, there is not,” stated Preiss.

When Preiss stated that he didn’t think the Rockaway Township ordinance permitted a mega-church in the town, Berger asked Preiss if he ever represented other churches that didn’t fall within the interpretation of an ordinance.

“I don’t think so,” said Preiss.

Berger then reminded Preiss that in April of 2003 he had testified before the zoning Board of Adjustment in Bedminster Township on behalf of a church that wanted to expand their facility to accommodate office space, a school, gymnasium and book store.

“On April 23, 2003 when you testified before the board of adjustment, you found that a general definition of a church was in your favor,” Berger told Preiss.

“That church was considered to be a non-traditional church,” stated Preiss.

“Why was it (non-traditional)?” asked Berger.

“You can go back and read it,” said Preiss.

“I will,” stated Berger, who proceeded to read aloud from documents pertaining to that case. Berger said, “In that case they were expanding to use it for office space, a school, and it was an inherently beneficial use.” Berger also reminded Preiss that the non-traditional church Preiss was referring to also didn’t comply with that township’s laws.

Berger read from those documents that the chairman of that board mentioned a gymnasium and a book store as accessory uses.

“You said many religious institutions have social halls,’’ Berger reminded Preiss.

“You said recreational, social, school purposes all fall under protection by statutes,” Berger also reminded Preiss, who still tried to defend his position.

Berger was also able to get Preiss to state that RLUIPA provides that towns can’t discriminate against churches and that land use regulations have to treat religious institutions the same way as other institutions.

When Berger asked Preiss if he had seen any ordinance define the word “megachurch,” Preiss said no.

Planning Board member Mayor Louis Sceusi also questioned Preiss at the April 21 meeting by saying, “Would you agree the standard church congregation usually emigrates from the community itself?”

Preiss indicated about 80 percent of congregants come from within the community.

“Have you studied the numbers in a standard church in the Rockaway Township community?’’ Sceusi also asked Preiss.

“I haven’t studied that,” stated Preiss.

“Doesn’t a megachurch change the quality of life in a zone?” asked Sceusi.

“I haven’t really studied that,” admitted Preiss.

Preiss also said a mega-church is not the same as a large church because it creates a level of intensity that is different from a church, despite the fact he had indicated to Berger that he did not have experience representing cases involving what he considered to be mega-churches or churches with more than 2,000 members.

During the public portion of the meeting, a resident asked whether the Planning Board is supposed to be the primary clearing house before the application goes to the Board of Adjustment.

“That’s not necessarily the case,” stated Preiss. “In this case, the zoning officer said this was a church, so it came before the Planning Board, which now has to make a decision,” added Preiss.

Speaking of the purpose of the Planning Board, the same resident said, “Is it not to treat all applications equal and fairly? I don’t see that happening (here) and I see this as a waste of time.”

Paradoxically, the same resident also said, “What would motivate the Planning Board to take on other problems from other communities?” This, despite the fact the church was seeking the new location because it was experiencing parking and building size limitations in Montclair, rather than imposing problems for that community.

Pieter Prall, a Meriden Road resident, asked Preiss, “If you have 1,000 people on Sunday and 100 come on Thursday, and 200 come on another night, does this boost the attendance factor?”

“Yes,” Preiss responded.

Referring to the OBRL zone, in which office buildings are permitted and which pertains to the Agilent site, township resident Gary Lewis asked Preiss, “There have been offices of multiple sizes going back to skyscrapers, so the writers of this ordinance understood there could be very large offices as opposed to small offices?”

“Correct,” responded Preiss.

Valley View Drive resident Dennis Haas asked Preiss, “Mega churches have greater negative impact than a normal church?”

“No, I didn’t say that,” responded Preiss. “When a church reaches a particular size, it has a significant impact and if it’s a zoning ordinance, there should be conditions related to that.”

Haas asked Preiss if traffic problems were considered when Preiss did his research.

“I didn’t look at the specific traffic studies that were done,” said Preiss.

During a five minute recess that evening, Marc Weinstein, a spokesperson for Christ Church, stated, “Christ Church is confident that its application will be approved and we believe the majority of Rockaway Township residents support the church’s plan to relocate to this community.”

“Christ Church is fully committed to being a valued member of Rockaway Township and will provide services that will significantly benefit both congregants and non-congregants in this community,” added Weinstein.

The Rev. David Ireland, the pastor of Christ Church, also spoke confidently at the meeting. “I’m still very positive - I think the land use laws are in our favor. The land use laws are very clear, and the Planning Board is bound to rule based on their own land-use laws,” said Ireland.

Ireland also commented about a study on mega churches conducted by Scott Thuma.

Data from Thuma’s study was mentioned by Preiss. “The primary purpose of the Thuma study deals with what goes on behind the scenes in large congregations and what church life is about, within a large congregation. His (Scott Thuma) study was never to deal with planning board laws, nor to define a church based on planning laws,” stated Ireland.

At the last hearing, held on Thursday, March 11, the board heard testimony from Peter Steck, a licensed planner and civil engineer from Maplewood hired by Christ Church, who was questioned by attorney Michael Edelson, who represented Voices of Rockaway, an opposition group who claim the church is too large.

Edelson had sought to prove the church’s size exceeded expectations of the original drafters of the township ordinance that provides for churches as conditional use in an OBRL zone (Office Business Research Laboratory).

At the March 11 meeting, when Edelson asked Steck if he thought some controls would be appropriate regarding the size of a church, Steck replied, “You can’t invent zoning conditions as you go along. You have to stand by your regulations.”

Planning Board Vice Chairman Arthur Crane had also questioned Steck on March 11, saying, “Could the board impose conditions on the applicant with regard to the church’s growth on the condition of not letting it get out of hand with the community?”

Steck had responded by saying, “I would call it an illegal plan.”

The next planning board hearing for Christ Church will be held at 8 p.m. on Wednesday, May 19, at Morris Knolls High School.

Visit us on the web: www.denvillecitizen.com

Incorporating the Lake Land NewS

(Please see Carole on page 2)

(Please see Church on page 2)

Date: Wed Apr 28 1:42 PM, 2004

Marc Weinstein, a spokesperson for Christ Church, stated, “Christ Church is confident that its application will be approved and we believe the majority of Rockaway Township residents support the church’s plan to relocate to this community.”

So why don't they propose a non-binding referendum - let the Rockaway Township residents make their wishes clear? Let Christ Church hear our voice!

Date: Wed Apr 28 2:00 PM, 2004

I counted about 225 people roughly.

Date: Wed Apr 28 2:02 PM, 2004

A referendum would blow their whole charade that "mostintown" support the church's move.

It would be way too painful to have the real numbers under their noses, of who wants it here and who doesn't.

Date: Wed Apr 28 2:02 PM, 2004

I've never seen a more one-sided crock of shat in my life.

Date: Wed Apr 28 2:08 PM, 2004

Is the author a member of cc or did the cc pr guy possibly write the article and pen it under her name? Who knows. I do like the referendum idea. Even if it is not binding, it would really send a message to our politicians. I am confident in the outcome of such a vote.

Date: Wed Apr 28 2:29 PM, 2004

That's something to bet the ranch on!!

Date: Wed Apr 28 2:31 PM, 2004

The errors in this article are too nurmerous to go into at this time. I will address them soon.

AGAIN...I will state VOICES OF ROCKAWAY TWP opposes a PROJECT FOR RE-DEVELOPMENT of environmentally sensitive land, a project that is too large and will cause significant negative impact on the town. AT NO TIME have we stated we are "against a Church". The members of the media who continue to spin this twisted story are speading lies and not reporting the FACTS. It is sickening to see them get away with this unprofessional behavior.

By the way according to the police there were 200 people at the meeting. I think someone needs to learn how to count.

Lisa

Date: Wed Apr 28 3:11 PM, 2004

Nobody believes you.

Date: Wed Apr 28 3:33 PM, 2004

I agree!

Claudette: who are you trying to fool???

Date: Wed Apr 28 4:46 PM, 2004

To the person who posted above "nobody believes you", have you spoken to "everybody"? Your statement may be more accurate if you stated "I do not believe you" and if that is the case, you are incorrect, however you are entitled to your opinion.

Review the website, our postings, our letters to the editor, review or several meetings at no time have we ever said we are against a "church". Of the hundereds of people I have spoke with and the thousands of letters we have recieved, over 99.5% have no problem with a "CHURCH" they do have problems with the size of any entity (walmart, Cosco, Ikea, or Christ Church) attempting to relocate to this property with the amount of traffic, re-development, demands on infrastructure and loss of taxes that are clearly laid out in the plans submitted by the applicant.

Please tell me what part of this you do not understand?

Have a nice day

Lisa

Date: Thu Apr 29 9:51 AM, 2004

Regarding the article, I agree that there appeared to be more than 100 people there at the beginning of the meeting. 200 sounds closer than 100 for sure. But by the later hours, it also appeared that many had left so the number could have dwindled to about 100. But, I agree that by not spelling this out in the article is misleading.

I also agree that the article is not concisely written, and jumps around a bit.

All that being said, many seemingly valid facts are stated that haven't been disputed here.

For example, the article states:

Preiss told Berger offices and research facilities are permitted by the ordinance in the OBRL zone and Berger responded by saying, “Anything to prevent 2,000 or 5,000 office workers on a weekly basis?”

Preiss responded, “No.”

This says that the ordinance would allow 5000 office workers on a weekly basis. So if the ordinance will allow 5000 office workers per week, why won't it allow 5000 church attendees per week?

There were several other points made that raised similar questions that seem to make the argument strongly in CC's favor.

Matthew

Date: Thu Apr 29 10:20 AM, 2004

An office building has to conform to certain requirements as well; I just don't know the particulars.

There are limits on how many office workers can be in a certain sized building--it is logical that a larger square footage would be alotted to an office worker versus a church attendee.

There are limits on how large this building can be on this lot.

There are limits on how high the building can be, they can't build a skyscraper there. I believe the limits are 45 feet (2 floors).

If anyone knows the particulars on this info, it'd be helpful.

But Ms. Berger made it seem as though we might have an office building with 10,000 or 20,000 maybe unlimited numbers of workers in that spot--but we're trying to keep this teeny-weeny church out.

Date: Thu Apr 29 10:42 AM, 2004

You wrote:
>>>>>>>>>Regarding the article, I agree that there appeared to be more than 100 people there at the beginning of the meeting. 200 sounds closer than 100 for sure. But by the later hours, it also appeared that many had left so the number could have dwindled to about 100. But, I agree that by not spelling this out in the article is misleading.>>>>>>>>

Hey...I counted 185 member after 10pm.

And who the heck cares....this thing is wrong for Rockaway for many reasons that I won't reapeat again!

Date: Thu Apr 29 11:13 AM, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: MArk B.
"Hey...I counted 185 member after 10pm. And who the heck cares....this thing is wrong for Rockaway for many reasons that I won't reapeat again! "

Mark,

You are right, who cares about how many people were there.

But you should care about the law in this case.

This question

" if the ordinance will allow 5000 office workers per week, why won't it allow 5000 church attendees per week?"

regards the law.

It seems that CC is making the case that the current ordinances would allow a business that would be similar in scope to what CC is proposing as far as the number of people per week.

And for the moment, let's stick to this point. I am not asking about environmental impact or taxes.

Matthew

Date: Thu Apr 29 1:05 PM, 2004

Try 25,000 members. Stop smoking that funny weed.

Date: Fri Apr 30 7:20 AM, 2004

How dose a nice new school sound to you?? Legaly built of course, as we all know you are concerned about following the law...

Date: Fri Apr 30 7:30 AM, 2004

Matt Wrote:
>>>> if the ordinance will allow 5000 office workers per week, why won't it allow 5000 church attendees per week?"

regards the law.

It seems that CC is making the case that the current ordinances would allow a business that would be similar in scope to what CC is proposing as far as the number of people per week.

And for the moment, let's stick to this point. I am not asking about environmental impact or taxes. >>>>

Well just for staters Matt;
The law is this: if it isn't in the ordinance, then it's not allowed.
Just as there is a difference in the ordinances between, manufacuting, light manufacturing, and office space (while they are businesses)
There is a difference between a church that serves the local residnets and community with 100 congregants, and a Mega Church that has over 2,000 members (or in CC's case 5,000 exisiting members, that could grow to 25,000 members that we the taxpayers will suport).

This is not the argument that (in a an anoyingly nasely, whiney voice) "if I buy a hamburger at one store and they call it a big mac at another store" are they different??

This is the difference between a corner candy store and a strip mall.

Date: Fri Apr 30 7:37 AM, 2004

And the ordinance states, if I remember correctly: "church" not Mega -Church.

I do not recall wether it states, manufacturing or research or light manufacturing, but I do remember it was clear on that.

But if it says light manufacturing, we will not be making cars there.

If it says office, we won't be making anything.

And if it say church, we wont be having over 2,000 members and all the documented stresses that accompany a Mega-Church.

(And...most businesses run 9-5, 5 days a week...while a mega-church runs 7 days a week, with festivals and holiday assemblies that can swell attendance numbers).

Date: Fri Apr 30 11:14 AM, 2004

Matthew can't touch that one Mark.

Date: Fri Apr 30 11:28 AM, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Mark B.
"And the ordinance states, if I remember correctly: "church" not Mega -Church. I do not recall wether it states, manufacturing or research or light manufacturing, but I do remember it was clear on that. But if it says light manufacturing, we will not be making cars there. If it says office, we won't be making anything. And if it say church, we wont be having over 2,000 members and all the documented stresses that accompany a Mega-Church. (And...most businesses run 9-5, 5 days a week...while a mega-church runs 7 days a week, with festivals and holiday assemblies that can swell attendance numbers). "

The Agilent site is zoned OBRL. There are no "church zones" in RT.

What is the limit of the number of workers that could come to the agilent site per week, under the current zoning laws? Is it 5000? Is it 10,000? A 45 ft. height limit would allow at least a 3 story building, and there's lots more room to build on that site. With multiple shifts, would 25,000 workers be allowed?

And how many visitors per week does the Mall pull in? Is there a maximum visitor cap mandated by the Planning Board there? If there were two million people per week visiting the Mall, could it be closed down?

The law is clear. A town can't say, regarding a specific location,

"we'll accept X number of people per week from a business, but not from a church".

Matthew

Date: Fri Apr 30 11:32 AM, 2004

The law is clear--then great, come up with real bulk numbers and maybe there's an intelligent conversation to be had here.

And p.s. I'd be willing to bet that 45 feet doesn't allow for a 3-story office building, though I'm not a contractor.

Date: Fri Apr 30 11:57 AM, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Matthew
""

The Agilent site is zoned OBRL. There are no "church zones" in RT.

Dude...shut it down already...the ordiance says CHURCH,.....not MEGA-CHURCH.
Reread my post, and maybe if you aren't so blinded by the shiney vision you see of yourself and the Rev, you'll be able to see the differnsce and how you post doesn't address my point.

Light Manufacturing = NO STEEL MILLS
OFFICE = no MANUFACTURING
Church does not =coliseum

Horse does not equal jackass.

Sincerely,
Mark

Date: Fri Apr 30 12:04 PM, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Mark B.
"The Agilent site is zoned OBRL. There are no "church zones" in RT. Dude...shut it down already...the ordiance says CHURCH,.....not MEGA-CHURCH. Reread my post, and maybe if you aren't so blinded by the shiney vision you see of yourself and the Rev, you'll be able to see the differnsce and how you post doesn't address my point. Light Manufacturing = NO STEEL MILLS OFFICE = no MANUFACTURING Church does not =coliseum Horse does not equal jackass. Sincerely, Mark "

Mark,

I see now.

Let me add one more equation to your list:

CC = Church

Matthew

Date: Fri Apr 30 12:11 PM, 2004

And that, I'd reckon, remains to be seen.

Date: Fri Apr 30 12:18 PM, 2004

10,000 workers Matt?? Your such an @ss! Do you really think anybody would be allowed to pave that much of the property to allow parking for 10,000 employees? Dude what are you smoking?

I believe Matthew is a troll folks - rabble rousing where he can, maybe to create ammo for the next biased report by Mr. Integrity (Jennings).

Date: Fri Apr 30 12:22 PM, 2004

He's Trollerific!

Can't wait for the big Mattedtodruss party when this is all over.

We can use our saved $40-60 from taxes to pay for a helluva bash!