Karen, sorry about the "double post"!  I guess if you hit "refresh" right after posting, it can happen.

Can you delete this one?

Matthew:

What is your take on this passage from Romans 2 (NIV):

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[1] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

quote:

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Originally posted by: Karen
"Awwww shoot, My Take! You ruined everything, now we have to leave both threads up! lol only kidding, it's not a big deal. Interesting in fact to see what directions they take separately...maybe I can rename them when I get home as "Where's Jay I" and "Where's Jay II" so we can keep them straight lol"

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quote:

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Originally posted by: My Take
"Matthew: What is your take on this passage from Romans 2 (NIV): 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[1] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism. 12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. "

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My Take, My take is to keep reading!  To read this passage out of context may indeed tend to confuse the reader.

Just a little further on though, starting at about Romans 3:9, Paul comes to the conclusion that he is leading up to:

9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better[2] ? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
   "There is no one righteous, not even one;
        11there is no one who understands,
       no one who seeks God.
    12All have turned away,
       they have together become worthless;
   there is no one who does good,
       not even one."[3]
    13"Their throats are open graves;
       their tongues practice deceit."[4]
   "The poison of vipers is on their lips."[5]
        14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."[6]
    15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
        16ruin and misery mark their ways,
    17and the way of peace they do not know."[7]
        18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."[8]
19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Righteousness Through Faith

21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[9] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Matthew

quote:

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Originally posted by: Craig Maier
"Another case of Circular logic again.  He just don't get it.  Using the NT to defend the position of the NT is kinda like putting the Fox in charge of the Chicken Koop only worse.  But he is too dumb to ever get that point. Try using the Torah or the Talmud as references in the future since those are the real foundations upon which all monothotheistic religions are based. You are trying to build a house without a foundation.  "

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Craig,

Maybe you can help me out with my original question to Jay.

How "good" is "good enough" to get into Heaven?

Thanks for any thoughts you might have,

Matthew

quote:

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Originally posted by: Craig Maier
"Forget about it.  I do not like engaging with Evangelical Fundamentalist Christians.  It is oxymoronic to say that it would be an intelligent discussion.  Proof of same has been offered repeatedly on this venue.  "

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Craig,

I am sorry you can't come up with an answer to this seemingly simple question  (If you have posted an answer to this specific question elsewhere, please do me the favor of directing me to that thread).

Otherwise, I guess you'll just have to let Jay handle this one alone.

Matthew

"Never said they [Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc..] didn't do ANY good.  I simply said they weren't getting people into heaven as far as I could see."

Jay,

The above quote refers to the claims of each world religion.  It goes back to my question of which one offers a free, unconditional entrance into the eternal presence of our Creator.

So what you are saying, if I get this correct, is that, no matter what religion you follow, if you are pretty good, then you will get to Heaven?
Is that your belief, Jay?
And each religion mandates what rules to follow, and what passes as "pretty good"?
Do I have it right so far?
So how good is "Pretty Good" in your religion, Jay?
Is rudeness OK?
How about selfishness?
Is a little lying OK?
How about stealing small ticket items?
How about a minor drug addition, is that OK?
How about a few small assaults?
And as far as the Jewish laws, how many do you have to follow?  ALL of them?  All the time?
How many do you have to follow to get in to Heaven?
ANd you mentioned different Jewish sects...do each of these have different levels of "goodness" that have to be obeyed?  So If one doesn't work for me, I can just join a more lenient one and then I'll still go to Heaven?
Or can I just make up my own religion (like Craig is doing) and set my own rules, and then God would surely let me in if I set the bar low enough, wouldn't he Jay?
Please help me out with some answers to these.

Matthew,

You ask a bunch of good questions.  I'll give you a simple answer that covers them all.  Who am I to judge G-d?  G-d will judge us, not the other way around.  All those questions you asked are between G-d and the soul that G-d is judging.

Now for your comments and your lack of answers to my questions....To me, my religion is something that is between me and G-d.  It is not in-your-face.  I do not try to force my beliefs on others.  As I said previously, there are many paths to G-d.  It is what is in one's heart that will get you to heaven.

How about your religion?  This entire conversation started when you claimed (among other things) that you "never said they [Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc..] didn't do ANY good.  I simply said they weren't getting people into heaven as far as I could see."

By making this statement, you are judging others.  You are setting yourself up as a gatekeeper of heaven.  You have given a clear impression that your religion is the only true religion and that others those who do not believe that Jesus is G-d's son (I do not) are doomed to eternal damnation.  Is this true or is it not true?

I'll ask you a few questions again - I'll even simplify them for you.  I am interested in YOUR opinion based on YOUR religious beliefs.  Beliefs that you seem very willing to spout at us when it suits you, but you refuse to answer when you realize that the answers make YOUR beliefs look small-minded and hateful.  Will you answer them?

• Is it the goal of those in your religion (Fundamentalist Christian - am I correct?) to convert non-believers to your way of thinking so that they may be saved?

• There are over 1 billion people in China.  They represent approximately 20% of the world population. Most are good people and lead simple, peasant lives.  Most will never hear of Jesus or even of Christianity in their lives.  Yes or no - Are they doomed to eternal damnation when they die? 

• Before Jesus was born, how did one get to heaven? 

• Back to yes or no.  Do you believe that G-d gave Moses the laws that mankind should live by while Moses was on Mount Sinai?

• If your answer to the above question about Moses was yes, then I would like to know - Did G-d change the laws after Jesus died (yes or no)?

These should all be simple questions for you.  You seem to be intelligent and well versed in the bible.  Many people on this board are looking forward to your response.  Silence / ignoring the questions at hand, speaks louder than any words you can type.

Oh - by the way - your question "which one offers a free, unconditional entrance into the eternal presence of our Creator."  I will tell you (IMHO) that there is no such thing as 'unconditional entrance'.  Each person will be judged and the conditions will be the life they lead.

Thanks,

J

You know the funny thing?  Matthew and Jay really are not that far apart on this issue. 

Essentially, Matthew is trying to point out that man can not ever live up to the standard of God that would allow man to deserve Heaven.  Thus, God, because He is Love, and feels nothing but Love for man, took our sin upon himself, paying the price for our entry into Heaven.  If we accept God's Love, we are in.  (Matthew will argue the semantics here - but that is the basic deal - accept that Jesus died for you, ask Him into your life and you are saved)

Jay (and others here it seems) argue that God is a just and loving God (no conflict yet) that will judge us according to our hearts.  Basically if you accept God as a loving God, try to live to His standards to the best of your ability and accept Him as the Loving God He is, you are "saved." 

In both cases the "bar" to entry is actually pretty low.

Jay,

"God will judge us when we die.   You will be weighed on all aspects of your life."

I understood before you answered that you feel God's judgement of us determines whether we will get into Heaven.

I was hoping you could be more specific.

Are you saying that you have no idea what the threshhold is for entry into Heaven?  And you'll just do as much good as you can and hope it's "good enough"? And if what you (or I) do wasn't quite good enough, then, oh well, off to Hell we go?

Matthew

quote:

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Originally posted by: Jay R
" Matthew, Again - Are you asking for a free lunch?  Are you asking for a 'get into heaven free' pass for accepting Jesus? Why do you feel there must be a 'bar' to be met?  If there were a 'bar', then people would attempt to only reach that level.  There is no 'bar'.  Be the best person you can be - do not strive to only meet a 'bar'.  I do not understand why you have a problem understanding this?  There are no guarantees - which obvioulsy, you want... How about the questions asked of you - your silence is both defening and defining....."

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Jay,

So in your view, as long as someone is "the best person they can be" then they will gain entry into Heaven?

It is possible that Hitler was the "best person he could be" given how he was raised and his social surroundings.  Maybe he just couldn't do any better.

So if this is the case, according to you, Hitler is in Heaven?

Matthew

Jay:

Here is why I say you two are not far off - "be as good a person as you can be and God will judge you" is really no standard at all.  Basically a free pass for anyone who, on balance, was a "good person."  That theory says, live, don't hurt anyone (too much), go to Heaven.  Ok.

Matthew is saying, "simple, accept that Jesus paid the price for you, go to Heaven."  Ok.

Both low standards.  That is the similarity. 

I understand that you are trying to differentiate your inclusiveness (everyone who is decent gets in no matter what they believe) with Matthews potential exclusiveness (only if a person actually accepts Jesus do they get in - if that is indeed what he is saying), I am just amused by the equally low standard.

Here are two legitimate, in my opinion, questions, one each:

Matthew:  What happens to a person who is never presented with the Gospels, but otherwise lives a life of love? 

Jay:  Do you think that God has made Himself known in any fashion to man, such that we may have an idea of how we are to lead our lives or is it all just relativity?

Matthew,

Here are your questions...One last time:

• Is it the goal of those in your religion (Fundamentalist Christian - am I correct?) to convert non-believers to your way of thinking so that they may be saved?

• There are over 1 billion people in China.  They represent approximately 20% of the world population. Most are good people and lead simple, peasant lives.  Most will never hear of Jesus or even of Christianity in their lives.  Yes or no - Are they doomed to eternal damnation when they die? 

• Before Jesus was born, how did one get to heaven? 



• Back to yes or no.  Do you believe that G-d gave Moses the laws that mankind should live by while Moses was on Mount Sinai?

• If your answer to the above question about Moses was yes, then I would like to know - Did G-d change the laws after Jesus died (yes or no)?

Jay,

You know I have answered all your previous questions.

If you want to stop this dialogue, I can completely understand.

You said, regarding Hitler:

" I have my opinions on what that judgement would have been"

What are those opinions?  Do you think Hitler went to Heaven or Hell?

Matthew