Jesus not allowed? - The "All Opinions are Welcome, but Sorry no Instigators" Board

Date: Thu Apr 22 8:01 PM, 2004

RE: Jesus not allowed?

Date: Thu Apr 22 8:02 PM, 2004

You all forget one thing......WE are the chosen people... SO if anyone has some explaining about this holier than thou...superiority complex , It's the Christian Fundamentalists.

Remember Jesus saves...but Moses invests.

Date: Thu Apr 22 8:09 PM, 2004

My 2 cents:

If Jesus came to town with 5,000 followers and decided to set up camp in my backyard ....

I'd be ****ed and ask them all to leave. My back yard is not big enough for that.

If Jesus decided to bring 5,000 followers to Green pond road and have a meeting every week, and run other services all week long....and have a retail store and tv station and all the other stuff.....

If he said he wouldn't cap things at 25,000 revelers....

And cause traffic, and other stresses to the community.

I would do exactly what I am doing now.....BECAUSE IT WOULD BE TO BIG FOR ROCKAWAY!!!!

I also don't think he would jam his religion down my thoat in the sytyle that Ireland or his ilk does (ie Billy Grahm, Jim Jones etc.)

And Ireland is not Jesus.

I do have a question....
Did Jesus require a tithe, 400,000 square feet of massive auditoriums and cafterias and school rooms and tv studios and book stores???

Did he ever push his way in where he was not wanted??

Did he ever trample someones town.

Just curious.

Date: Thu Apr 22 10:08 PM, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Mark B.
"I'd be ****ed and ask them all to leave. My back yard is not big enough for that.
"

By the way...just to make sure no-one misreads the "*" 's in my post abpve....
the board changed what I wrote which was the word : "pis*ed",,,,meaning really annoyed.

Date: Fri Apr 23 5:26 PM, 2004

Jesus Christ the man - would not the like the manner in which the powers that be at CC are attempting to destroy the land given to us by God.

As said yesterday (earth day) by the President of the USA (an evangelical Christian) we are all to be "stewards of the land". This is written in the Bible and I think it would do Rev. Ireland some good to re-read this portion.

Please pray as you wish --- but do not destroy the land!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Date: Sat Apr 24 2:10 PM, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Craig Maier
"Is anyone here prepared to state that they have died and then come back such that they can "promise" us what the future is after we die?

Craig, you really haven't heard of the ONE who HAS done this??

Date: Sat Apr 24 3:27 PM, 2004

No, Mathew, I have not. You may not be aware that most Jews do not accept that Jesus was G-d. I did not know that there was anyone that ignorant on this venue. But alas, most of the people on this planet do not accept your basic thesis.

I suppose that I am going to go to hell or some other real bad place like all the rest of us 4 billion non-Christians who do not accept that Jesus was anything more than a great prophet. I also assume that you would have all of mankind who was born before 2000 years ago in hell too.

Sorry if I am offensive (but probably no more offensive than you have been to me and my beliefs), but the whole concept is a bit absurd to me.

The above are my opinions, and my opinions alone. They do not represent those of VORT or necessarily anyone else.

Date: Sat Apr 24 3:31 PM, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Matthew
" Craig, you really haven't heard of the ONE who HAS done this?? "

Matthew,

Of course you are free to believe what you want. Being a Jew, I don't believe that Jesus was resurected. Oh - and by the way - I'm happy with my belief, I believe in G-d. I attempt to live a good, honest life. I disdain any attempts to 'convert' me, and oh yeah - be it G-d's will, I will be going to heaven when my life is done.

So tell us Matthew - since you like commenting about other religions...Will I burn in hell because I do not accept the resurection - No matter how good a life I lead? How about the convicted lifelong criminal who repents to Jesus on his prison deathbed? Is his soul worth more than mine???

HAND

Date: Sat Apr 24 3:46 PM, 2004

Mathew:

To amplify on what Jay had to say, I offer the following analysis that comes from the response to a quesiong that I often pose to Fundamentalist Christians:

When I ask the following question, I get the following answer from fundamentalists like yourself:

"If hitler, say, 5 minutes before his demise truely in his heart of hearts accepted Jesus as his L-rd and saviour, would he (hitler) be accepted into the Kingdom of G-d known as Heaven?" The answer that all of you fundies give is "absolutely yes, he would be." Well, guess what, this Jew here does not want to be anywhere close to where that guy spends eternity. Furthermore, I just do not think it works like that. Go through life raping, plundering and pillaging and then just believe in somebody who lived 2000 years ago and all is put right. Crazy. I believe in G-d and, like Jay believes, that G-d willing, I also will have a place in heaven sometime in the future so long as I strive to live a decent live here on this planet.

By the way, Roman Catholic doctrine is obverse to the above fundamentalistic thinking. I have asked a number of R.C. priests about this and have come to find that this perverse thinking is limited to small minded Fundamentalists like yourself.

Date: Sat Apr 24 11:11 PM, 2004

Here is some basic logic applied to comparisons between the Jewish and Christian Monotheistic religions:

Basic Background:

Christians, Jews and most all assume that G-d was discovered by what we call the "Jews" via his covenant (some might refer to this as his first covenent) with Abraham. G-d codified that relationship with his people (the Jewish people) at Sinai with his covenant which he proclaimed (according to Torah {the first five books of the Christian bible}) that if his "chosen people" followed certain rules (amongst them the ten commandments, but others too if you are Jewish - - - do not wanna get off on that tanent). Moses codified that relationship at Sinai chronologically many years later.

Basic Precepts:

Given that G-d is the following: (Mr. Town Clown will not like this cause I am going to use numbers and since he has a hard time counting, it will cause him some cognitive problems)

1. G-d is Omnipotent meaning all powerful and controls all. That is a basic Judaic precept. K??

2. G-d is Omniscent meaning that G-d not only created then, but now, and also the future. G-d know all things for all times.

3. G-d is timeless. G-d knows what was, is and will be.

My conclusions:

So, if you accept that Jesus created a second covenant with the world, then one would have to accept that our monotheistic G-d lied to his people at Sinai. G-d certainly knew what was about to happen in the future since he created it and is omniscent. So, for one to accept the idea that Jews will go to "something called hell" as defined by Christians means that those who believe that would have to call G-d a Lier.

4. I do not believe that G-d was, or is or will be a Lier. G-d may have opened the doors to all people to his kingdom through some other means, but he certainly did not damn the Jews. (Fundamentalist Christians believe that to be true).

5. I note that there are only about 15 million of us Jews in a world of 6.2 billion. Hmmm.

6. We, as a religion (and a people too) have survived since about 3,500 BCE, much longer than any other society.

7. We have not died as most societies have despite our small numbers.

8. I doubt that G-d made a covenent with the "discoverer" of the monotheistic world and then decided to ignore his previous covenant with his "chosen people" when Jesus came along.

9. There have been well over 1000 Jewish people who have claimed to be the Messiah over time.

10. Jesus does not fit the profile of a Meshiac according to that definition in Isaiah (which is part of the Tanakh).

11. According to Jewish scripture (the Old Testamanet (or what we call the Tanakh)) the Mesianic era will be marked by 1000 years of peace and tranquility amongst all peoples of the world.

12. If you are intellectually honest, does anyone here really believe that after Jesus was born and that we have had item number 11 occur?

12. Do you think the Crusades, Inquisition, Nazi-ism, etc were good examples of so called "Christian Virtues?" Were they a good example of peace and harmony amongst all peoples?? (If I were Christian, I would be embarassed as all hell about it all).

13. If you think so, ok. But does that mean that us descendants of Abraham are doomed? Really?? Why???

14. If so, you are completely perverse and I do not want you living in my town. I do not want to go to your "heaven." I am afraid of you. You scare the **** out of me.

15. Sorry, but that is the way that I feel.

Rev. Craig Daniel Maier, Phd.

The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone and not those of VORT or anyone else necessarily.

Date: Mon Apr 26 10:53 AM, 2004

Craig, may I suggest that when you're quoting scripture that you include the text or at least reference the verses that back up what you say?

I don't have time to personally refute all the points that you have made but I'd be happy to refer you to some websites that answer all your questions (and more) if you would like.

All the questions you have raised are certainly valid, I raised many of them myself over the years.

But it only boiled down to two questions for me:

1 - Did Jesus really exist as described in the Bible?

2 - Can I know for certain that when I die I will go to Heaven to eternally be in the presence of the loving Creator of all that was, is, and will be?

You know what my answers are to both of these questions.

What are yours?

Date: Mon Apr 26 11:22 AM, 2004

Difference between you and I is that I am willing to let G-d do whatever G-d feels is fit for me at the end of my life. I trust G-d. You want guarantees and you do not trust G-d.

Furthermore, there is a real perversity in your fundamentalist thinking. You funamentalists would hold the following to be true: (I have asked many, and I always get the same response)

If Anne Frank met her demise without ever accepting Jesus as her saviour (a pretty good assumption) you folks insist in saying that she went to hell.

On the other hand, you Fundamentalists will say that if hitler did find Jesus as his saviour in his heart of hearts 5 minutes prior to his demise, the he would be in the Kingdom of heaven.

That is pretty perverted thinking, but it comes from you folks and you can not deny it. Very sick and completly ironic thinking.

I have spoken with three Catholic Priests about the above to find out what more moderate Christians think. The Catholic priests (all local) were unanimous when asked the above set of questions. Hitler, very likely, would not end up in heaven no matter what he did at the end of his life because of the way that he led it. Anne Frank most certainly did end up in heaven because she was Jewish (that is part of Jewish teachings) and because of her status as a human being.

Please stay out of my face with your religion. I do not want to hear about it. I am perfectly content with Judaism.

Date: Mon Apr 26 11:34 AM, 2004

It would seem that when you bring up the Anne Frank and Hitler hypotheticals, you are avoiding the questions that I have asked.

Have you researched the "Authenticity" of Jesus? Did He exist? Did He do all the things ascribed to Him in the Bible?

Do you know for certain where you will go when you die?(As for "Trusting God", that is the only method that will allow me to answer this question)

As for me "getting in your face", I'm not sure how I am doing that. You are free to ignore these posts and point your browser elsewhere. So far you have chosen not to.

Matthew