Development on GPR - The "All Opinions are Welcome, but Sorry no Instigators" Board

eaglemig · Status: Offline

Development on GPR

karen · Status: Offline

Ted, you can't possibly have forgotten the position most of us take on just about every issue in your entire post.

It's been repeated ad nauseum here and elsewhere, and I for one refuse to do it again; obviously it's a waste of keystrokes trying to explain for your benefit.

In a nutshell, the cons of the Christ Church project greatly outweigh the allegeed pros, on many levels.

THINKER · Status: Offline

First of all, it is not mostly Sunday traffic. Please refer to the church's calendar. Also, this church is also a company and with the school there will be as much traffic during the week as a company. A company will not have much weekend traffic when we share the roads with many people going to the lakes to RT 23. And a company with staggered hours will not need to go through residential neighborhoods as cc is planning on doing.

Second, large scale, no way on 140 GPR. It's Highlands, it's environmentally sensitive, all the same reasons why cc is too large for the land.

Third, another company would provide jobs for ALL of RT, taxes, be an outstanding member in the community, not like cc.

Therefore, another company, yes. A large commercial development no.

eaglemig · Status: Offline

Thinker,

Your view is well taken but I still say 100 acres on the sewer line is going to be more than it is now. Have you considered that the mall yields $17 million per annum (2.9 billion asessed value at the current municiple tax rate) and the mayor emailed me saying he's struggling to make ends meet.

I really don't believe RT is fighting to maintain GPR as a rural area. I think the more you build, the more you need to build. Put another way the bacteria grows to fill the petrie dish. I think the church would put a stop to comercial development...for a while at least.

GadFly · Status: Offline

Hawk watch??? Donated by a private company to the state!

Split Rock??? The rights sold by the Water company to the state!

Please explain to us how Rockaway Township caused these sites to be 'developed'.

Please tell us about the massive traffic this recreational area and bird watch cause!!!

eaglemig · Status: Offline

Karen,

My remarks did not ask you to reiterate the objections to Christ Church. I asked you to consider the possibility (I believe probability) that because of its location, 140 GPR would become the next big commercial project in RT.

Before you scream Highlands Bill remember it's provisions are controlled by the state as is NJ wetlands. That is, it's much easier to manipulate than if Federally controlled. As an example, the former wetland that is now the Olive Garden was dealt with legally within the state, no federal intervention

THINKER · Status: Offline

You have got to be kidding. GPR cannot handle a commercial development. The road is too narrow and to widen it would mean buying up people's houses etc. For the same reason that 140 cannot handle cc goes for a commercial development. We don't really need anymore commercial development. We have the mall as you keep saying that is already overbuilt. I don't believe anyone in town wants 140 to be developed anymore than it is. GPR is the ONLY road for the northern part of town to get in and out of their homes. With the mall so close, people will not go to a commercial development that will be such a hassle as one would be at 140. Don't compare the Olive Garden with 140. The wetland there is much smaller than 140. Instead of commercializing because it's the end of the sewer line, extend the sewer line North. I'd much rather have sewers than sceptic anyday.

eaglemig · Status: Offline

I agree with you except that I belive it would happen. 140 is the last stop on the sewer line, it's well situated near a highway and the Mayor claims he needs the $17 million/yr tax revenue from the mall just to keep the tax rate stable he could use more money Also don't forget that sewer treatment capacity is limited and it's shared between several towns. So the race is on to see who can grow the most before capacity runs out.

The church would prevent further commercial growth in thre GPR corridor

RTconcern · Status: Offline

Lets deal with some facts. OK Ms. kNoWiTaLl AKA TED how large is the sewer pipe leading out of Agilent and what is it capacity?

Hey Ted, why did you drive up the steps of the mun. building? You know you should really do the right thing and give up driving for the safety of the community. You are darn lucky you did not kill someone!

JohnQ · Status: Offline

in my opinion ted, 140 GPR is already over-developed. If we can find a tax paying entity with less than 800 employees to take over, so be it. I personaly think Rockaway should bond it out for future projects, what they may entail time will tell. What I find rather strange is why some people would not want the least intensive project happening there (and cC is definately too intense IMHO) instead of a reasonble project - we all have to live here, commute, drink the water, etc...

Call me crazy, but the lies, deciept, and bully tactics I have seen so far do not give me a warm fuzzy about my towns future as host to the cC mega-dream trying to cram themselves into 140 GPR.

eaglemig · Status: Offline

To RTConcern,

The size and capacity of the sewer line isn't of concern. The capacity I refer to is sewer treatment capacity of the entire sewer district. It's a long story but bottom line capacity is limited and eventually the towns within the district will have to pay dearly to upgrade the system. Per a court order a few years back the remaining capacity is on a "first come, first serve basis. So basically there's a race to grasp as much capacity as possible before it's too late.

I think the powers that be (or were) would like to cash in on 140 GPR and retail is the quickest way to do so. Office space is nice but takes too long. For example: how long was the BASF building empty?, Rockaway 80 was intended to b offices...does anyone remember that, and how long was Agilent on the market before a potential buyer was found?

The church woul hal the retail explosion in RT

THINKER · Status: Offline

"The church woul hal the retail explosion in RT" I think what this means is that the church would halt the retail explosion in RT. I think not! They would be creating the cc explosion which could become as great an explosion as a retail. After all, so far, cc has a company, a church, retail, and a school. rev has bigger goals set or he wouldn't need so much space.

eaglemig · Status: Offline

Thinker, We've been through this before but no one's responded yet.

Everyone's afraid that RLUIPA will allow CC to grow without limit at 140. Secondly, those same people believe CC is consciously trying to destroy RT.

THINK ABOUT IT! CC has outgrown it's current home and is moving. What makes you think that they won't move from RT if 140 becomes too small?

Do you really believe Ireland holds secret meetings to discuss ways to make Thinker's life miserable?

Also, if Ireland is a businessman, as you like to think, why would he try to make his paying customers uncomfortable by using an overcrowded facility in RT, Montclair or anywhere else?

GadFly · Status: Offline

eAGLE,

The facility in Montclair is a street corner church. It is located in a city area. It can NOT be expanded.

140 GPR is located on over 100 acres of land and there are many neighboring properties (residential - much to the dismay of the cc 'expert' that testified many months ago about a building in an industrial zone, there are HOUSES across the street from 140 GPR) that they could purchase. Clearly, if the rev desired to push through a RLUIPA case to expand regardless of the impact on the environment and roadways, there is room to build a very large facility at 140 GPR - perhaps one that could even hold 10 or 20 thousand people at one time. Yankee Stadium is built on a 16.4 acre plot of land and can hold well over 50,000 people at one time, so creating a campus to hold 10-20 thousand on over 100 acres (even not using half of them) is NOT inconceivable. Would a RLUIPA expansion trump the Highlands? Only time, and some VERY expensive future legal bills would tell.

...and if the future traffic is horrible, I'm sure mr ireland is capable of suing our township and the county claiming that unless they expand GPR to a 6 lane roadway, they are hampering his religious freedom (how dare they)!

By the way - I am still waiting for you to tell us all how Rockaway Township caused Split Rock and the HawkWatch to become "overdeveloped"!

-- Edited by GadFly at 11:40, 2005-07-15

eaglemig · Status: Offline

In order to expand 140 (RLUIPA or not), Ireland would need to convince the town once again not to mention the State DEP & DOT as well as the county. Put on your business suit and ask yourself if you'd expand or move.

I'll ask again do you really think Ireland's out to get you...or do you think he's looking to provide a comfortable home for his followers?

Splitrock and Hawkwatch overbuilt? Those are your words, not mine. I said "opened up" . If you recall there was an uproar in the community when it occurred ( I specifically recall objections from Sceusi, Sheninger and Minenna). The point was that development is underway>

JohnQ · Status: Offline

ok tEd - do you deny that cC has enjoyed explosive growth? Do yoU also deny that they omitted the "undergroud" parking garage and the soil disruption? As yOU are aware, development and re-development are two completly different things.

As cC stands today, they are too big - what will be yOUR stand 10 years down the road when 20,000+ are traveling up and down the 6 lane highway formely known as Green Pond Road.

As far as what the rEV does and sais behind closed doors, how would yOU know what he is thinking??? The lawsuit is without merit, yOU know it, and so does the rest of the town...at this point do yOU really believe the rEv or any of his followers would even slow down on the way in and out of town each and every day?? Give us all a break.

karen · Status: Offline

1. Back at one of the very first PB meetings, Ireland stated that it was mandatory to expand enough to have all of his parishioners together at one time to worship.

Anything less than that would be a violation of their religious rights under RLUIPA.

He has been threatening to sue this township from the getgo.

2. As for CC moving away once they become too big, once this property is removed from the tax rolls and becomes a "church", what company will buy it and use it for its original purpose? Can that even be done, once it's considered non taxable?

Why would we be happy about this prospect? Why would it please us to concede and compromise our lifestyle for the sake of an organization that has already said "Well, if we grow larger, we'll just move".

And why would we believe in the first place, that he would peacefully accept that he can't expand further, and move on?

Again, he has been threatening to sue this township from the getgo if he doesn't get what he wants. Once here, it'd be that much easier for him to insist upon what he wants... and potentially get it.

Sorry, nope. I like this Township the way it is.

eaglemig · Status: Offline

I don't deny CC has seen a high growth rate but what's your point?

Growth may or may not continue but isn't it more probable that if growth continues CC will move again? Look at the barriers to expanding 140 GPR. Why would he even try? Especially if the church experiences explosive growth after moving 30 or so miles from its base.

I don't know about you but If explosive growth continued. I'd start thinking that the church has a wide appeal and it wouldn't matter where it is located. Why go through the hassle again? I'd just move. Wouldn't you?

Slowing or accelerating isn't my issue. I asked whether or not you think Ireland is out to hurt RT...and why?

Incidently whether the parking is below ground or at grade level doesn't matter. If the building is above it, it's considered impervious and soil movement is of no consequence. The Fire Dept may be concerned however but they reported that there is no reason to move equipment into the area

RTconcern · Status: Offline

So, you're saying Ireland will spend trens of millions into a maglopolis that he may just up and leave in a couple years? Um OK...."There are no Americans in Baghdad"

THINKER · Status: Offline

"Growth may or may not continue but isn't it more probable that if growth continues CC will move again? Look at the barriers to expanding 140 GPR"

It hasn't stopped him now. He knew from the get go he was going to face trouble getting his mega campus put into 140. Why would someone buy so much land that they can't and won't use? Why isn't it cheaper somewhere else with more land that can be used, public transportation, and members?

reV has BIG dreams. And yes he is a business man. How else can you explain his $900,000 house?

eaglemig · Status: Offline

Karen,

You're correct that Ireland wanted one service with all congregants but he didn't invoke RLUIPA. In fact, he adjusted with a small reduction in the size of the sanctuary and two planned services.

A company that needs the land for an appropriate use might be interested if the church moved again...but I'll bet we are gone and buried when that day comes...With all due respect, what's our point? It's not an Indian burial ground. Of course the land would be re-used if it ever came to that.

eaglemig · Status: Offline

Thinker,

My understanding is that Ireland's initial meeting with the Mayor was favorable but I'm sure he anticipated some roadblocks. Certainly no two years worth however.

When you purchase property, unuseable parcels are often part of the deal.

I'm sure cheaper land can be found but as I recall Ireland testified that he did what we all do in looking for a home. He made some general decisions, drew a circle on the map and sought land in his price range within the radius.

JohnQ · Status: Offline

how contrite mR dOTY...yes, this is just a little land deal as yOU have claimed all along...yeah right buddy.

Let's face the facts - cC will never build at that site, unless it's an 800 member seed church (IMHO that's not the dream) so why do yOU look for every possible angle to spin and twist while trying to apply lipstick on this pig?? I would ask what is in it for yOU??? We are waiting for yOUR honest reply...

karen · Status: Offline

Ireland said he's been looking for a site for 7 years. Seven years ago he had how many members? Perhaps he should look for a site that will accommodate his growth in the coming years rather than disrupting our area for a while, and then discarding it when he's finished.

And I don't believe he is out to destroy RT.

I do, however, believe you are.

GadFly · Status: Offline

tED,

The point is that iRELAND will have spent MILLION$ of OPM (Other Peoples' Money) and years of planning board and court battles to move to GPR - a LARGE site with over 100 acres - about half of them buildable. If it were not for some itsy bitsy problems (The Highlands law, the environment, the traffic), his dream site would be more than big enough to accomodate THREE YANKEE STADIUMS (as I stated previously - Yankee Stadium is only 16.4 acres). I'm sure that iRELAND views the current and future environmental and traffic issues as solvable POLITICAL problems, and NOT as stumbling blocks towards his ego driven desire to grow massive. Remember, ireland has already stated that he DOES have growth projections that he is unwilling to share and that he DOES have a five year plan which includes new ministries, which he also has failed to share with the public.

He's not putting in all this effort to purchase 140 GPR just to toss it aside in 5 years and start the entire search process all over again, except this time, looking for a home for 20,000. He's moving to a LARGE campus so he can accomodate his mega-dreams of growth and have his oversized campus match his oversized dreams and oversized ego.

Besides - tell us, do you seriously think he could easily find a NEW SITE 5 years from now if he's got 10,000, 15,000, or perhaps 20,000+ members???

We all know he'd be EXPANDING his current site (140 GPR) and threatening [RLUIPA] lawsuits if our county and town do not kowtow to every desire he has that is needed to fulfill his "religious mission" of growing AND having his people all together at the same time.

Paraphrasing JohnQ, you ain't gonna put lipstick on this pig and make him fly!

-- Edited by GadFly at 14:43, 2005-07-15

THINKER · Status: Offline

"He made some general decisions, drew a circle on the map and sought land in his price range within the radius."

If you believe that, I have a bridge I can sell you. $14,000,000 is a lot of money for being able to use 1/2 the land (incidentially, I would wonder what owner buys property that he can't use, my property is all usable). A two lane winding country road is not a large enough road for thousands, no public transportation. RT is not in the middle of a circle when you are talking about people coming from east, south and north, very few come from the west. RT 80 will be the main road to get to RT and that's a nightmare.

His decision making process leaves much to be desired especially with such degrees as he has.

Therefore, I believe you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

I do believe ireland has other things in mind.

GadFly · Status: Offline

Thinker,

Other things on his mind?

Perhaps, the center of his circle is the intersection of routes 80 and 287 in Parsippany. With major highways leading off in all four compass directions, that point is withing 60 minutes of most of the Bronx and Manhattan to the east, approaching Trenton to the south, well into Pennsylvania to the west and Rockland County, NY to the north. Three states, and many major population centers are all within a short drive.

GPR is only 5 miles west of that intersection.

Perhaps his choice of locations is driven more by a desire to have the most number of people within a 60-minute radius and NOT by what's best for his CURRENT congregation!!!

-- Edited by GadFly at 14:53, 2005-07-15

-- Edited by GadFly at 15:04, 2005-07-15

eaglemig · Status: Offline

JohnQ,

I don't know what to tell you. I've stated my motivation many times (at least twice in the past two days. I believe if the church isn't built, 140 GPR will be used to continue the snowball effect of growth started more tan 25 years ago when the original mall was built.

Karen and Gadfly,

We were theorizing what might happen IF Christ Church grows but you two are dicussing it as if the growth is a sure thing, at the rates you've decided...and then karen says she doesnt feel Ireland wants to destroy RT yet in the same breathe, she has CC "disrupting" and "discarding". Heck Gadfly says with certainty that the growth will take only 5 years and there will be 20,000 plus members... and we ALL know it.

How can anyone give credibility to such alarmist comments? That kind of talk excited citizens 2 1/2 years ago at Copeland. I'm not trying to start a fight but quite honestly, how many of those 7 or 800 people are still listening? Move on, let's deal with reality.

Thinker,

You must have missed that PB meeting when Dr. Ireland described his decision process. One of the items was a questionaire that asked the distance congregants would travel each week...it went from there. Actually the method is accepted management tool

karen · Status: Offline

I said I don't believe he's OUT TO DESTROY RT. Meaning, with intent.

I did NOT say that I believe he has RT's best interests at heart and will abide by what's best for us as RT residents or our township as a whole.

There is a middle ground there--it's called disregard.

I believe he wants his campus for the good of his ministry; and I believe he feels that objective trumps all others. And I believe he feels the end will justify the means.

I happen to disagree.

eaglemig · Status: Offline

Karen

So you feel that Ireland has good intentions and at the same time he's Machiavellian. Curious if not ponderous