CC not true to their word - The "All Opinions are Welcome, but Sorry no Instigators" Board

Date: Fri Mar 19 6:52 AM, 2004

CC not true to their word

Date: Fri Mar 19 8:49 AM, 2004

What nonsense.

Date: Fri Mar 19 9:32 AM, 2004

Nonsense Russ?

How do you reconcile Christ Church's statement "To be a church that is racially, culturally, and ethnically integrated. Our message on promoting reconciliation and restoration among the races is very real to us." with the fact that Rev Ireland throws out claims of "someone told me there were racists in Rockaway" on CBS-TV? How is Rev Ireland promoting reconciliation by spreading rumours about racism that he can not prove. He was doing nothing but trying to paint Rockaway Township in a negative light. Reconciliation my a$$.

I find the two statements from the Church and the REv to be incongruous.

Date: Fri Mar 19 9:58 AM, 2004

Do you actually live in Rockaway?? Is your suggestion that there have NOT been racist statements made regarding the application? Are you suggesting that there are NOT racists in RT? Wake up to New Jersey (America's second most segregated state) and America buddy.

Date: Fri Mar 19 10:23 AM, 2004

It is always interesting to observe a person or group who can not defend a position based on its own merits and then reverts to the race card as a diversion, Mr. RTruth.

Date: Fri Mar 19 10:24 AM, 2004

Russ,

First of all, yes I live in Rockaway Township. Why would I care about a local issue if I did not live here - unless I lived somewhere else that will be greatly affected by the mega-traffic, such as the Rockaway Valley section of Boonton Township (back way in) or even Denville. By the way, it's not the good residents of Rockaway Township who have hired a media consulting firm to 'get OUR truth out' and attempt to control the media. The people of Rockawy Township are REAL PEOPLE who speak for themselves.

Of course there are racists in Rockaway Township. There are also racists in Montclair. There are racists everywhere.

So tell me, how does the Rev promote reconciliation and restoration among the races by making claims on CBS-TV news about racists. The vast majority of the township is not racist (do you agree with that Russ?). The members of the planning board are not racist (do you agree with that Russ?). The members of VORT are not racist (do you agree with that Russ?).

Tell me Russ, how Rev Ireland can promote reconciliation and restoration among the races and at the same time make unfounded and unproven second-hand claims of racism. That was a self-serving statement of hatred made soley to attempt to sway public opinion on an area-wide TV broadcast to make Rockaway Township look like a redneck racist town. Personally, I was disgusted by his statements on TV. I found them completely against the concepts of reconciliation and restoration stated by the Church.

The race card will not work because Rockaway Township is NOT a 'racist' town any more than Montclair, Denville, Parsippany, Randolph, or any other town is.

Date: Fri Mar 19 10:26 AM, 2004

I did not start this topic - just responding to it.

The is no "race card" involved when actual racial comments have been made (or perhaps live2gether and friends are just misunderstood?). "Race card" is itself a right wing construct used to discredit real racial issues. This is no "game" sir.

Date: Fri Mar 19 10:27 AM, 2004

This whole thing has nothing to do with renciliation.
It has nothing to do with race or intergration.
It has everything to do with fit, burden, cloak & dagger, and questionable statements from the CEO of the church.

Date: Fri Mar 19 10:27 AM, 2004

sorry for the bad spelling...was in a rush

Date: Fri Mar 19 10:43 AM, 2004

Russ,

I would like to see you answer the questions posed in my last message:

Do you think the vast majority of Rockaway Township residents are NOT racists?

Do you agree that every town has some racists in it?

Do you think the planning board is racist?

Do you think the mayor is a racist?

Do you think any of the members of VORT are racists?

Do you think that Rev. Ireland's statement on CBS-TV that 'some people told me that some people in Rockaway Township are making racist claims' (That's paraphrasing him - but I think it accurately reflects what he said a few months ago) promotes reconciliation and restoration among the races, or does his statement do the opposite by fanning racial flames?

By the way, I resent YOUR statement insinuating that I am not from Rockaway Township. As we have seen on the nj.com board, it is the paid shills from Christ Church that are NOT from this area, but yet make claims about our town. The opposition to Christ Church is from REAL PEOPLE who have REAL concerns about traffic and impact from over 1000 new parking spots, from a church that wants to grow to be bigger than our town - and has proven itself very capable of such growth.

I look forward to your response Russ.

Date: Fri Mar 19 10:47 AM, 2004

Racial statements are made every day, in every town.

If indeed someone made such a statement to the Rev, why in the world would he embrace that statement and portray it as the "reason" RT doesn't want this application (as it stands) to be approved?

Why? Not just because they're in the media spotlight right now and the word "race" causes reporters' mouths to water and gives the church even more publicity, but mostly because the REAL reasons are justified, rational, and legitimate.

And that confounds the church, because they can't with a clear conscience (I assume the church's leaders try to keep their consciences clear), argue against reasons that make SENSE.

So, they grasp onto their supposed "racial statement" and use that to attempt to take focus off the real reasons:

Traffic, Impact, Environment
(Plus taxes, which aren't legitimate for denial, but do concern us as residents.)

Date: Fri Mar 19 10:50 AM, 2004

Do you agree that every town has some racists in it? Yes.
Do you think the planning board is racist? No idea.
Do you think the mayor is a racist? No idea.
Do you think any of the members of VORT are racists? No idea.
Do you think that Rev. Ireland's statement on CBS-TV that 'some people told me that some people in Rockaway Township are making racist claims' (That's paraphrasing him - but I think it accurately reflects what he said a few months ago) promotes reconciliation and restoration among the races, or does his statement do the opposite by fanning racial flames? The racist remarks that came after the news of the Church's move fanned racial flames, not Rev. Ireland's comments. His comments relayed what had occurred.

Date: Fri Mar 19 10:54 AM, 2004

"The racist remarks that came after the news of the Church's move fanned racial flames, not Rev. Ireland's comments. His comments relayed what had occurred."

Russ, could you please rephrase that statement, I'm clueless so it takes me a while to absorb things sometimes and I get confused.

It would help if you could relate it somehow to how the Rev's statement promoted reconciliation and restoration among the races.

Date: Fri Mar 19 11:01 AM, 2004

I will try and explain for you Karen: It does not "promote racial reconciliation" to ignore racism. You face it, head on. Racist remarks were made regarding the church's move. Rev. Ireland discussed them. You may not like that fact that they were made, but it is a fact. To comment on those remarks is not "fanning the flames," making the racist comments was the "fanning." So the point is that there is no conflict b/w the Church's mission and the Reverend's comments.

(let's be clear that this discussion string has never made any connection b/w the comments and vort, and neither has the Church - I imagine that if vort is made up of the good people I know in town that they are actually disturbed by the fact that their interests are shared by those who would make racist remarks against the applicant)

Date: Fri Mar 19 11:10 AM, 2004

Do you agree that every town has some racists in it? Yes.
Do you think the planning board is racist? No idea.
Do you think the mayor is a racist? No idea.
Do you think any of the members of VORT are racists? No idea.
Do you think that Rev. Ireland's statement on CBS-TV that 'some people told me that some people in Rockaway Township are making racist claims' (That's paraphrasing him - but I think it accurately reflects what he said a few months ago) promotes reconciliation and restoration among the races, or does his statement do the opposite by fanning racial flames? The racist remarks that came after the news of the Church's move fanned racial flames, not Rev. Ireland's comments. His comments relayed what had occurred.

Russ - if you feel that Rockaway Township is no more racist than any other town and that there is no insight into the parties involved being racist, then why did Rev Ireland make his statement on CBS-TV? What purpose does it serve for him to say that some in Rockaway Township are racist - just like some people everywhere. His statements were self-serving and AGAINST the church's own policy of promoting reconciliation and restoration among the races.

Again Russ, if every town has some racists in it, why did Rev. Ireland feel it was necessary to point out the fact that Rockaway Township is just like every other town in that there are some racists in it? Does his statement promote rconciliation and restoration among the races or does it do just the opposite. Rev Irelands statements were self-serving. He tried to paint a picture of Christ Church as an innocent church trying to fight the racists of Rockaway Township. Reconciliation and restoration be damned!

Please explain to us how the statements he made on TV were NOT self-serving!

Date: Fri Mar 19 11:10 AM, 2004

Ok, thanks--

If I truly wished to discourage (for example) a badly behaved child from continuing his obnoxious behavior, would you recommend that I acknowledge that behavior by giving it media attention and a wide audience?

If so, on what level would that be perceived as "facing the behavior head-on" to compel the child to stop that unpleasant behavior?

Thanks!

Date: Fri Mar 19 11:12 AM, 2004

...and, in fact, am I not--by giving the behavior widespread attention--actually ENCOURAGING him to act out further?

How could I possibly say I was trying to stop this bad behavior?

Date: Fri Mar 19 11:15 AM, 2004

I am going to cut off responding after this, since you seem unable to comprehend most of it. I did not say that Rockaway's racial issues were equal to every other town. I said there are racists in every town. The more racial rumblings you hear from a town the more likely a larger portion of that town has such issues. And more generally, in New Jersey, as you go west you find more and more such issues (I won't give you the history lesson of white flight and real estate redlining in NJ, look it up on your own). Take that for what it is, the end of the commentary.

Date: Fri Mar 19 11:37 AM, 2004

Oh, ok, thanks.

I guess you're saying there are "more racial rumblings" in Rockaway than in other towns.

But those rumblings come FROM a black man from Montclair on national television. Do those count as more rumblings from Rockaway?

So I guess RT is now "more racist" because the Rev rumbled.

OK, I guess I have to stop with this thread because it's way-y-y beyond my simple redneck comprehension.

Date: Fri Mar 19 11:58 AM, 2004

Or perhaps the poster is over compensating for his own latent bigotry.

Much the way a homophobe would.

Date: Fri Mar 19 11:59 AM, 2004

Russ,

It is sad that Rev Ireland USES the racist statements of a few, anonymous statements supposedly heard second hand to promote his own agenda of moving to Rockaway.

What was the original wording of Russ's poem on his website. Remember when it first went up, there was a big stink and it was changed. (If anyone remembers it or has a copy, I would appreciate it being reposted here).

Are we to assume that ALL Christ Church members including Rev. Ireland follow the hateful statement you orginally put up, but were forced to change?

Let me also ask you a hypothetical question...I assume that among Christ Churchs' 5000 members, there must be someone who has been arrested for a crime in the past five years (NOTE - This is an example...My assumption is that the crime rate among Christ Church members, as I would assume for ANY church / synagogue / mosque is MUCH LOWER than the population as a whole - including the population of Rockaway Township...This is just a study in statistics - with so many members, I am sure there is at least one). I do NOT expect to see our Mayor on CBS-TV any time soon stating "We don't want them here because they're a bunch of criminals". That would be exactly the same as what Rev. Ireland did. He was told second hand about anonyous racial comments, and went on TV blasting us as racists.

Thank you Mayor Sceusi for taking the high road, unlike Rev. Ireland.

Last question Russ - I'm still bothered by the fact that you insinuated that I am not from Rockaway Township. It is in fact the supporters from Christ Church, including those from their publicity firm that have been posting from "out of town". I ask you again, why did you make that statement? Rockaway Township does not have a paid media consultant to control spin. VORT does not have a paid media consultant to control spin. I wish the same could be true about Christ Church, but alas, they feel that they need to control the press to further their cause.

Date: Fri Mar 19 12:01 PM, 2004

They're trying to make something out of nothing.

Obviously to take the attention away from the real "somethings"!

Date: Fri Mar 19 12:06 PM, 2004

The prayer's second paragraph originally read, "I pray for our mayor and other leaders … that they may be able to put the whole Christ Church issue in its true light and that they will not be influenced by Your enemies."

Date: Fri Mar 19 12:06 PM, 2004

Folks like Ireland and others from CC can call us racists all they like. Who cares since it simply can not be substantiated. It is just "bait." The race allegation does not change the basic fact that this guy is building a country club that can hold up to 25,000 people each Sunday. Yes, this number is my estimate, not Irelands. But since Ireland has refused to make the growth projection that we have been demanding, I have done so for him. And 25,000 is what he is building for from both a tops down (physical size, room number, total seating, etc) and a bottoms up analysis (club membership average annualized growth rates projected out 5 years) point of view. What give me the right to do so?

1. Irelands refusal to do so

2. Our need to know CC's "IMPACT" on this "PLANTING".

3. My background in strategic planning during my 8 year work assignment working in the Marketing Department of HP/ Agilent (performing marketing research for new product planning).

And I am willing to stand behind these numbers as an experienced professional business planner and market researcher.

Put me on the "stand" in front of the Board if you like. I can defend my numbers very easily.

Craig

Date: Fri Mar 19 12:10 PM, 2004

But Craig, YOU don't have a degree in Organizational Leadership--the Rev does and he can't project numbers...What do YOU know better than him?! lol

Date: Fri Mar 19 12:18 PM, 2004

Ahhhhh, you are right! But - - - I do have degrees in Engineering and a PHd in Divinity too!! I can also help advise the Reverend in the ethical aspects of the moral dilemas that he has created here in our town. We could start with a discussion of the practical application of some of the 10 commandments.

Date: Fri Mar 19 12:38 PM, 2004

Thank you Karen, for the quote.

Russ - Since you were posting here, I know you are reading this. This forum allows for OPEN debate without censorship. You made claims, people refuted them, and you said you would just take your ball and go home - you don't want to play any more.

The assumption that anyone will make who reads this is that you have no valid arguments and therefore choose not to debate.

Getting back to your poem - "I pray for our mayor and other leaders … that they may be able to put the whole Christ Church issue in its true light and that they will not be influenced by Your enemies."

My assumptions - since you capitalize the word "Your", you are referencing G-d. Are you claiming that people in Rockaway Township who do not want Christ Church coming to town are enemies of G-d? That's how I read your statement. Do you then think it would be fair to see Mayor Sceusi on WCBS-TV news claiming that Christ Church thinks Rockaway Township residents are the enemies of G-d? After all, it's the same inference that Rev Ireland made on TV. Again, Rev Irelands statements were self-serving and against the stated goals of his own church. He is so blinded by gaining his own Vision that he can no longer see the True Light, and for this, I feel sorry for him.

Date: Fri Mar 19 12:43 PM, 2004

Another of your statements Russ - "I am going to cut off responding after this, since you seem unable to comprehend most of it."

Are you claiming that Rockaway Township is too stupid to understand your statements? Would it then be fair to expect to see Mayor Sceusi on CBS-TV claiming "I hear some Christ Church supporters think all of Rockaway Township is filled with enemies of G-d who are too stupid to understand reasonable statements."

Russ - I implore you. Think again about Rev. Ireland's statements and how it would compare to the hypothetical statement above (hypothetic, becuase unlike Rev. Ireland, our mayor would not stoop so low as to make such an insulting claim).

Again Russ - No answers implies you have no valid arguments. You are free to speak your mind on this forum. Others are free to respond. That is what America is about.

Date: Fri Mar 19 12:46 PM, 2004

"Others are free to respond" - WITHOUT fear of deletion or censorship!

That's the operative statement here. That's why some people don't want to hang here because they can dish it out but can't take it.

That's why some people choose to hang on the nj.com board where they can control who is heard and who is kept silent.

Date: Fri Mar 19 1:07 PM, 2004

Looks like we have stuck a nerve. I had not thought about the churches statement in this light and am happy someone pointed it out, but not for the reasons some may think.

I hope that Christ Church sees how the comments and actions of their Pastor and CEO appear to those in the town he wishes to move to. I personally was highly insulted by his comments on CBS and shocked that his own membership (regardless of color) did not stand up and take notice. Name calling is a terrible thing and I hope he not revisit this issue again.

I personally have a family that is very diverse in many ways, I love it! That is what America is about "the melting pot", it is not always easy but it is beautiful.

Russ, You need to do a great deal of work on understanding the basic concepts of the planning board process. In addition you also need grow up and stop the name calling. Your letter was very funny to read, so thanks for the laughs. I had given you more credit for understanding the process, I take that all back now.

Did you all read that Russ claimed the Agilent site was "ZONED FOR CONDITIONAL USE", Russ please do some research and get the basic zoning terms correct. Our responce will help you understand the process a bit better and we can stick to facts, data and proper terms without resorting to childish name calling.

Sincerely,

Lisa