Signs - The "All Opinions are Welcome, but Sorry no Instigators" Board

ChuckMueller · Status: Offline

Signs

Rational · Status: Offline

I notice that his smaller signs and now his larger signs are on Rockaway Township owned (public) property.

Does it bother anybody that a so called church is promoting itself using our (taxpayer owned) land for that purpose? If he can put signs there, nothing is stopping him from putting those signs in front of town hall or on any other pulic grounds; no technical legal difference exists. Publically owned land is publically owned land no matter where it is physically located in town.

Rat

-- Edited by Rational on Friday 14th of August 2009 05:20:24 PM

rockres23yrs · Status: Offline

What about the common practice of putting signs on public property attracting potential buyers to homes for sale? RT probably can't let that practice go unchallenged and then make an issue of similar sized signs for CC. Just a thought. Not sure what the law is.

Rational · Status: Offline

Many towns do not allow real estate signs to be placed on public grounds. As a matter of fact, Mountain Lakes does not even allow those signs to be placed on the property owners front lawns; it is viewed as an aesthetics issue. Let's face it, those things are ugly as sin.

-- Edited by Rational on Saturday 15th of August 2009 09:41:23 AM

rockres23yrs · Status: Offline

Many towns don't allow signs but unfortunately RT does not seem to be one of them. There are often signs relating to homes for sale posted at the intersection of GPR and Meriden right across from CC. As long as those signs are there and elsewhere in the township it would seem that there is no way an issue could be made of comparable signs posted by CC.

Rational · Status: Offline

You are putting the promotion of a particular religion by our township on the same legal rung of the ladder as selling a real estate property.

I think that there is a basic legal principle at play here in which the "state" (in this case the state is the township) is not permitted to promote any specific religion.

So, there is a big difference between the two situations.

Rat

rockres23yrs · Status: Offline

There doesn't really seem to be a difference in treatment between property owned by religious organizations and residences. Each one gets police protections, access to public roads and whatever services are provided to members of the community at large. I've seen signs for such things as church bake sales on public property, utility poles, etc so I'm not sure that RT could single out CC for doing something that other members of community, both religious and nonreligious are allowed to do.

Rational · Status: Offline

Ok, so let's just imagine what this township could look like if we followed your idea.
Every business, every church and synagogue, every charity and every person could place a sign outside of town hall advertising their stuff with no controls whatsoever. And, now extend this idea to every piece of public land including town hall, the library, the public schools, the lake, Wildcat Ridge, etc.

This does not paint a very pretty picture, does it? Is that what you want to allow?

(btw - I disagree with your basic precept because religion is treated differently in the eyes of the law compared to commercial enterprises - - - there are legal precidents in place regarding state sponsered religious displays on public property). Surely, you must have heard of them.

Rat

rockres23yrs · Status: Offline

Please don't misunderstand. I would prefer less signage all over. My only point is that how do you say CC can't put up some signs while allowing St Celilia's church to advertise a bake sale?

Rational · Status: Offline

You can not and we should not permit it. No religious organization should be allowed to advertise itself or any of its activities using public property.

Period.

Rat

ps - I would go further to say that there should be a "Post No Bills" ordanance that covers this situation. I would be surprised if such an ordinance does not already exist. It is a "Quality of Life" issue for the residents of the Township.

rockres23yrs · Status: Offline

I think we both agree that signs on public property are an eyesore. Are you saying that only religious organizations should be prohibited in posting them or would you ban all signs on public property? If it's the latter, that would include signs for property for sale, earning lots of money from home, dating services, church bake sales and car washes, and let's not forget all those "vote for me" signs. Is there an ordinance that prohibits all of these signs that is simply not enforced?

Rational · Status: Offline

I'lll answer the last part first. I do know know if there is an ordinance, but if there is, we should either enforce it or get rid of it. It makes no sense to me to pass laws and then take a laissez faire approach thereafter.

Personally, I think that no signage should be permitted on public property whatsoever. Can you imagine what this township would look like if every one of us planted a sign promoting our business in front of town hall?

And, ask yourself what would happen if I put a sign up right next to Irelands sign right there on GPR on RT property saying:

"Why pay five, I just Charge Five (percent that is) - - - Redemption guaranteed or your money back. Come to Rats Church each and every Sunday".

Hmmmm - - - makes ya wonder. Ya see, some religions are going to be treated more equally than others in RT, don't you agree?

I wonder why?

To solve the problem, no religious group should be permitted to place signage or religious symbols on publically owned property.

Do you not see the wisdom in this?

Rat

rockres23yrs · Status: Offline

I'm not sure that I agree that religious organizations should not be able to put signs on public property while others can. I guess the argument to make that distinction would be that government should not be subsidizing religious organizations. The problem with that argument is the Government is already subsidizing religious organizations by exempting them from property taxes and by allowing income tax advantages for individuals making donations to them.

My view is that ordinances governing the display of signs on public or private property should be applied uniformly and, if an ordinance does exist, it should be uniformly enforced.

It would be interesting to see what might happen if you were to place your own signs on the RT property along Greenpond Road. You would think that your signs should be given the same level of acceptance as CC's signs.

Rational · Status: Offline

Quoting Rockres:

"You would think that your signs should be given the same level of acceptance as CC's signs."

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You are not serious, are you? I am certain that MOST religious signs other than irelands would not be tolerated on our township property. Haven't you noticed what has been going on in this town over the last few years? You do know that the township ignored numerous sub-code violations that I identified pertaining to the electrical distribution system for CCs sign. I am certain that the township would not have overlooked those violations had it been you or I with the violation(s). And the state completely overlooked the Highlands Act when it came to cc.

And so for the government relationship with religious group signage, by allowing one religious group to post signs, and not allowing other religious groups (like my sign promoting the Church of Ratology) to post, you put the government in the business of discerning the difference between a legitimate religion and a non-legitimate one. The state determines what religions shall ultimately flourish and those that will not.

Is the Church of Ratology less legit than CC? Who is to say?

Rev. Rat, Phd.

ChuckMueller · Status: Offline

That would indeed be an interesting test and probably a good vehicle to force a legal decision. Put similar sized and colored signs in between the existing CC signs announcing the Church of Ratology and requesting support, say with a website address. The signs may be in front of CC, but its public property, not theirs so the town would either have to allow both/all similar signage or none at all. I'm sure CC wouldnt like it, but its not their property. I see an interesting legal dilemma. C.

Rational · Status: Offline

Indeed!

Anyone wanna do it or help me with the project? We can use my ordination credentials if that becomes necessary. I have the official paperwork making me a Reverend.

Rev. Rat, Phd.

-- Edited by Rational on Monday 17th of August 2009 11:49:35 AM

Rational · Status: Offline

Chuck,

I want to do this stuff legally and so I just called the RT zoning officer - - - a guy named Dennis,

I left a message that essentially went as follows (paraphrasing):

"I am xxx yyy and I have a new religion that I would like to promote here in town. I want to post signs in front of Town Hall, The Library, The Public Schools and on other township properties.

Please call me back and let me know what I need to do to set this up properly. If you need to, I can produce my ordination papers to you in person.

Thanks"

-- Edited by Rational on Monday 17th of August 2009 12:24:17 PM

Rational · Status: Offline

I just received a return call from Dennis, the town zoning official about my request to post my signs to promote my new religion using township property.

He explained to me that it would be a violation of township ordinance to do such a thing and that it is not permitted because it involves the promotion of a religion.

So, you know what I said. And then he said, and I paraphrase:

"Well, I did not know that he was doing that". I said, just go down there and look.

Now - - - let's see what happens.

Rat - - - Largest Rat and Director of Ceremonies - - - Church of Ratology, Inc.

-- Edited by Rational on Monday 17th of August 2009 03:12:07 PM

rockres23yrs · Status: Offline

Rational,

Apparentlly you were correct that it is against the RT ordinances for a religious institution to place signs on public property. I didn't know that religious groups were not permitted to do that while other entities such as realtors, politicians, and commercial organizations can. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out. Good luck and thanks on behalf of those RT residents that do not wish to have religious advertisements posted on public property.

JohnQ · Status: Offline

Along these lines gentlemen - why would mr liarlands electric sign be allowed on our public property, but not his el cheapo plastic "sheeple zappers"...???

p.s. - Rat - I would be willing to make some paperboard and marker signs and endorse the "church of Rat" if we must take the fight to em'...let us know what support you need.

p.p.s. - can we include a Sunday "Giants fans supporters" worship hour as part of our protected religious expression..??

jq

Rational · Status: Offline

Hi JQ,

Thanks for the offer to help; let's see what the township does now that the zoning department has been informed about the problem and has verbally denied my request to post my religious signage. Let's give them a day or so.

If they do not respond, it will be obvious to all of us and then we can consider promoting our favorite football teams/religions there without official permission. That could get real interesting.

Rat

ps - Giants worship is part of the Church of Ratology dogma.

-- Edited by Rational on Monday 17th of August 2009 08:08:40 PM

JohnQ · Status: Offline

I'm on board Pastor Rat...may our constitutionally protected right to practice our freedom of religion trump any and all common sense and political correctness...in other words - if you can't beat em' - join them...!!!

p.s. - we can make a case for setting up shop Sunday afternoons along our public brook in front of 140 GPR and fish/grill/listen to our team while practicing our religion...just a thought.

-- Edited by JohnQ on Monday 17th of August 2009 08:46:21 PM

Rational · Status: Offline

Yeah, we can combine a little stream fishing (another dogma of the Church of Ratology - - - but only in-season) with some worship and communion with dogs and beer whilst watching a game re-play.

Hey, the circus can not chase us out of there as far as I can tell so long as we do not violate any laws.

And, the image of "Church of Ratology" signs just seems so right to be there, doesn't it?

Rat

rockres23yrs · Status: Offline

As an alternative point of view wouldn't a citizen have the right to remove signs illegally posted on public property just as groups of volunteers sometimes remove litter. Just a thought.

ChuckMueller · Status: Offline

Congrats gentlemen. Sounds like a winner. If nothing else it will remind the head of that 3 ring circus that we havent forgotten about him and he remains very "unwelcome" in our town. If I remember correctly, the idea of the original sign was brought up way back when and the thinking was that HP/Agilent had always been allowed to have a sign there (even though it was technically twp property) so they couldnt very well refuse to let CC have one. I do think that allowing a tax paying industrial company a little leeway is far different from crossing the church & state boundaries though. Lets see what happens. C.

ChuckMueller · Status: Offline

Seems to have worked...

rockres23yrs · Status: Offline

RE: Signs

ChuckMueller · Status: Offline

Yep Thanks Rat. Keep them on their toes. BTW I just ordered my online ordination as well so Rev. Chuck can become an associate minister in the Church of Ratology. C.

Rational · Status: Offline

Chuck,

Great - - - two preachers in our public pulpit is better than one! Feel free to add to the Church of Ratology's dogma.

Rev. Rat, Phd.

-- Edited by Rational on Tuesday 18th of August 2009 04:19:03 PM

JohnQ · Status: Offline

As I am more of a follower than a leader, I will happily join any and all "worship service" held wherever my fellow Ratologists and leaders deem appropriate - have fishing pole, will travel gents...

Where have all the good times gone..??

VH...Diver down

p.s. - after the last few Sundays my observation has been that mr liarland is not reaping in the mega crowds (and mega $$$) he promised one and all...perhaps some poetic justice an instant karma have come to fruition...the best laid plans of mice and men...