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Post Info TOPIC: NY Times
BR


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NY Times


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/02/nyregion/02church.html?pagewanted=1


Here it is. I would have expected more from the NY Times. This is even worse than the Daily Record.



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Not at all surprising to me.  Were you surprised at its one sidedness?  The article would not only have you believe that we are interfering with their right to practice their religion, but also responsible for their babies diaper rash!  I think that the article is more like what ends up in their babies diapers.


It is also very interesting that this article was delayed until today, the night of the big PB meeting.  I think that was no accident.  Seems like cc's tenacles extend outwards quite far. 


Do you folks still think that RT can afford NOT to have a PR firm representing its best interests?  This thing is going to be judged in the court of public opinion before it ever hits the courtroom.  Read - - - jury bias - - - that is the name of the game here.


Awwwww, poor little cc being picked on by BIG BAD RT. 


Well anyway, here it is for those that are not members of the NYT:


---------------------------------------

Praying for a Bigger Church. Suing, Too.

By TINA KELLEY

Published: May 2, 2005


MONTCLAIR, N.J. - Worshipers crowded into Christ Church to listen to the Rev. David Ireland preach. Some of them stood in the foyer. Two dozen more were in a room used to handle the overflow watching the minister on a large-screen television.


Even among those barely old enough to stand, it was standing room only on a recent Sunday because the church's nursery had reached its capacity of 12 infants and toddlers. If any children cried or needed changing, a board in the sanctuary would light up with their assigned numbers, summoning their parents. This scene is typical of most Sundays at the nondenominational church, which is predominantly black but also has a significant number of members of other races.


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-- Edited by Rational at 04:53, 2005-05-02

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Sorry folks, it did not reprint.  ---



-- Edited by Rational at 03:02, 2005-05-02

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So the question of the day becomes, how do they have advanced knowledge of what the NY Times will publish???


4649. Times will point out

by ronRT, 5/1/05 23:44 ET


The mayor of Montclair says the church has been a asset to the town and has great programs, I bet they mention the free fitness center for the towns use.
 4639.1.1.1.1.1.1. enjoy the times article

by ronRT, 5/1/05 23:54 ET
Re: vort=anti RT by realRockaway, 5/1/05

It looks like the town is getting a free fitness center thanks to CC     I wonder how many lunches Whiney had to O'Spring for to explain the 'facts'???

-- Edited by GadFly at 08:49, 2005-05-02

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The New York Times




May 2, 2005
Praying for a Bigger Church. Suing, Too.By TINA KELLEY





MONTCLAIR, N.J. - Worshipers crowded into Christ Church to listen to the Rev. David Ireland preach. Some of them stood in the foyer. Two dozen more were in a room used to handle the overflow watching the minister on a large-screen television.


Even among those barely old enough to stand, it was standing room only on a recent Sunday because the church's nursery had reached its capacity of 12 infants and toddlers. If any children cried or needed changing, a board in the sanctuary would light up with their assigned numbers, summoning their parents. This scene is typical of most Sundays at the nondenominational church, which is predominantly black but also has a significant number of members of other races.


Christ Church holds five services on Sundays at its 800-seat building here, but that is still not enough to accommodate the more than 5,200 members in its expanding congregation.


Christ Church's robust growth has led it on a seven-year quest for a new home, and now, reluctantly, into federal court. The church has a contract to buy the corporate campus of a biotechnology company off Route 80 in Rockaway Township, 21 miles northwest of Montclair, with ample parking and room for a 2,512-seat sanctuary.


But some neighbors are objecting, saying the church would damage the environment and snarl traffic. The township has not yet approved Christ Church's building plans, which were submitted in July 2003, and the church sued the township last month claiming a violation of its right to practice religion.


A handful of court cases in New Jersey and across the country have focused on local land use laws that can make it difficult for religious congregations to build new homes. And when the would-be new neighbor is a megachurch, a congregation defined by religion scholars as having more than 2,000 members, the stakes become higher.


Besides a large sanctuary, Christ Church's leaders want to build offices, Bible study rooms and an elementary school. The plans also include ball fields, basketball and tennis facilities and an indoor gym that local residents could use free. Some existing buildings at the site would be torn down.


When Dr. Ireland, 43, and seven other people gathered to create a new church in 1986, they never thought they would ever need such a large space. Dr. Ireland, who grew up in Rosedale, Queens, described himself as an atheist when he was a teenager who became a born-again Christian in 1982. He worshiped at an evangelical church in East Orange, N.J., which asked him to start an offshoot that became Christ Church.


"I wanted to talk to people who were stuck like I was on this journey to faith," he said. His sermons focus on practical matters like parenthood, money management and marriage. The congregation also sponsors meetings during the week on similar topics, a pragmatic response to the needs of its members that has helped spur Christ Church's expansion.


"We have always structured the church for growth, asking what would happen if more people showed up, would they have a good experience," said Dr. Ireland, whose marketing approach extends to radio and television broadcasts of his sermons. About 80 percent of the church's members live within a half-hour of Montclair, while some come from as far as the Poconos and Rockland County, N.Y.


Ed Remsen, the mayor of Montclair, says Christ Church has been an asset to the community. "They run a lot of quality programs in the church," he said.


He compares Dr. Ireland to the Rev. Floyd H. Flake, a black leader who is the senior pastor of the 10,000-member Allen African Methodist Episcopal Church in Jamaica, Queens, and a former United States representative. "He's a very charismatic man," Mr. Remsen said of Dr. Ireland, who is black.


Sharon Givens, of Bloomfield, who has attended Christ Church for a year and a half, said she first heard Dr. Ireland preach on radio and television broadcasts and went to the church after moving to the area. "I love everything about it, the feeling I get every time I wake up and know I'm coming," she said. "I run through emotions here that just touch different parts of me."


Odette Allen, who has gone to Christ Church for four years, said she was drawn by its diversity. "I'm looking forward to more space, and looking forward to what we can actually offer people in the church and community out in Rockaway," she said.


But as has been the case with other megachurches, Christ Church's desire for more space has caused it to run into a legal thicket.


In April 2003, the church entered into a contract with Agilent Technologies to buy its 101-acre property on Green Pond Road if Rockaway Township approved the church's plan for the site. In March 2005, the township passed a zoning law that Dr. Ireland believes was aimed at keeping Christ Church out.


He said the church filed suit in Federal District Court in Newark on April 15 to avoid missing a deadline for appealing the law. The suit said the township, its council, planning board, environmental commission and mayor manufactured improper barriers to the plans, deliberately dragged their feet on the church's application and "have expressed hostility to the evangelical Christianity practiced by Christ Church."


The church's complaint cites a federal law requiring governments to give justification for any law that places a burden on a religious organization through land-use policies. The new law in Rockaway Township, which clarifies what can be built in different parts of town, replaces an ordinance that William Dimin, the lawyer for the township's planning board, said was too vague. Mr. Dimin also said the approval process for Christ Church had not taken an unusually long time for a project of its size.


Critics of the church's plan have questioned the exemption the church received from the State Department of Environmental Protection to build in the protected Highlands region, saying the plans have changed since the exemption was granted.


Lisa Salberg, one of the founders of Voices of Rockaway Township, a group that opposes the church's plans, said the church wants to build closer to a town well than allowed by law.


The nearly 700 cars that Christ Church told officials it would draw to town every weekday are also a concern, she said, citing testimony at a meeting from a traffic expert working for the church.


Church officials say they have modified the plan several times to meet township concerns and will pay for a traffic light on Green Pond Road to control traffic near the site. They say they have asked the township under what conditions they could build closer to the well, but say that the township has not responded.


Rockaway Township is 75 percent white, and Dr. Ireland said the church has received some race-related e-mail messages opposing the plans. The church does not cite race in its lawsuit, however.


Rockaway Township's mayor, Louis Sceusi, said the township would lose $630,000 in property taxes if the church, a nonprofit organization, moved in. In response, Dr. Ireland said his congregation generates more than $6 million annually for Montclair's economy from parishioners who shop there.


Christ Church has been supported in its efforts by the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty, a nonprofit law firm in Washington that has defended religious groups in court cases around the country. "What the city has basically done here is to sort of hunker down and throw sand in the gears at every step," said Derek L. Gaubatz, the fund's director of litigation.


But Marci A. Hamilton, a professor at the Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law, questioned the constitutionality of the federal law cited in Christ Church's lawsuit.


"It's the federal government coming in and creating local land-use law," said Professor Hamilton, who argued a case before the Supreme Court involving a previous version of the law that the court declared unconstitutional.


For the moment, Dr. Ireland is trying to remain optimistic that his church will eventually be able to build a new home in Rockaway Township. "I look at the Old Testament," he said. "You find Moses had a lot of trouble getting to the promised land."



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-- Edited by GadFly at 06:45, 2005-05-02

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"For the moment, Dr. Ireland is trying to remain optimistic that his church will eventually be able to build a new home in Rockaway Township. "I look at the Old Testament," he said. "You find Moses had a lot of trouble getting to the promised land."


Well actually Moses never got there because of the disobedience of mis-representing God... Joshua took the people into the land (not Moses). They wandered for 40 years because of disobedience, idol worship, complaining etc.


Interesting analogy.....



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Right on, RTDweller.  Seems you know the bible better than Ireland.  It also goes to show that he is as much less of a a minister than you or I could be.

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Some questions for the NY Times.  Is this a news article or an opinion piece?  If it's a new article, I would like to see explanations for the following:


 


Christ Church's robust growth has led it on a seven-year quest for a new home, and now, reluctantly, into federal court.


The inclusion of the word reluctantly is clearly opinion, not fact.  Why is this word used in a "news" story?


The church has a contract to buy the corporate campus of a biotechnology company off Route 80 in Rockaway Township, 21 miles northwest of Montclair, with ample parking and room for a 2,512-seat sanctuary.


This is clearly a mis-statement / LIE?  If the site had ample parking, as the article states, then why is all that new parking needed? 


Hat's off to Whiney.  He wins this round.  I'll bet he had to expense a bunch of lunches to get this article written (my opinion - not fact)!  I'll bet it's much harder to schmooz Federal Judges (although I do worry about DEP members).



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As factually incorrect as his reference to Moses was, its another typical example of this guys ego, comparing himself to great biblical leaders. I'm surprised that he doesnt claim to be the big man himself.

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Chuck Mueller "JUST SAY NO!"


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Chuck,


I think that he has.  To quote him, he once said "only I have the gift."  It is my understanding that only G-d has the gift which G-d shares through some of us for the benefit of the rest of us.  I am pretty sure that what I said is correct as I did get a 4.0 in my Divinity School Final Exam. 



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"Some existing buildings at the site would be torn down."


Is that some sort of weird joke? He wants to tear the place down, remove a sh*tload of soil, and build a monstrosity to fit his ego...


"What the city has basically done here is to sort of hunker down and throw sand in the gears at every step,"


Wow! Has Rockaway now become a city while I was asleep?? This piece of trash mock-news report reads like a promo right off cc's website! It is obvious that Ms Kelly put her name on Spring-O'briens handy work - got to give it to them on this one though, they even hoodwinked Lisa into believing this was going to be a real news story, by someone who knows the area. If Ms Kelly knows Rockaway, she would know we are a far cry from a city - say one like Montclair - with the public transport, sidewalk shoppers, etc...


It is time for our board to take the kid gloves off - playing nice-nice with this wolf in sheeps clothing is going to get our town swallowed whole! Time to end it tonight - they have been punching below the belt for too many rounds now - our township, it's PB and council members, have been personaly drawn into this baseless suit, time to recuse themselves one and all. Let's meet the rev in court in a few years, in the meantime we can carry on with our busy lives in our great town! See everyone tonight.


 


 



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Quoting JohnQ:


"It is time for our board to take the kid gloves off - playing nice-nice with this wolf in sheeps clothing is going to get our town swallowed whole! Time to end it tonight - they have been punching below the belt for too many rounds now - our township, it's PB and council members, have been personaly drawn into this baseless suit, time to recuse themselves one and all. Let's meet the rev in court in a few years, in the meantime we can carry on with our busy lives in our great town!"


(Emphasis added)


---------------


Amen!



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BR


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Better yet, lets really get the ball rolling. Turn down the project tonight. We can play games too. See you in 3 years if this ever makes it to a hearing. Then a month before the court date, take the property by eminent domain and build those much needed lacrosse fields.


Seriously, I am sure the board will do as Marci advises.


 



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