Folks, I was just interviewed by a reporter from the Daily Record regarding my reaction to an "Olive Branch" that Ireland is offering our township. First, here is the so called "Olive Branch". Ireland is willing to limit the number of classrooms to a lower number than the present number and reduce the height of his steeples if the town is willing to back off on their pressure towards him. The reporter wanted my reaction to his proposal. I guess he called me because he knew that I would express my opinion openly and loudly. And I did. I told him that he can keep his Olive Branch as far as I am concerned. The real problem in my estimation, is Irelands unwillingness to cap his congregation size. The reporter recalled my line of questions regarding that limitation and also recalled me hitting the number of 25,000 with no cap offered by Ireland. I pointed out that once this guy is in the town, and all of a sudden, by magic, his congregation grows from 5,000 to 25,000 he could simply say to RT and Morris County, "time for you guys to fix our roads! My church members are having a very tough time getting to church on Sundays and it is unacceptable to me. I want this problem fixed and fixed now. It is not my problem that my church grew so very nicely." (the previous quote is rhetorical, obviously.) Furthermore, I pointed out to the reporter that Ireland had refused to pledge to help fix our infrastructure if he overloaded it. The reporter recalled that statement by Ireland. Lastly, he asked why traffic is such a concern to us. I said that my wife and I both live here on Meriden Road which will become the alternate route for churchgoers. I pointed out that one could alternatively take 287 N to Fanny Rd to Powerville Road to Diamond Spring to Farber Hill and then to Meriden to get to church. That would create a parking lot in front of our home on Sundays. He asked if I had any other concerns. I said that the traffic is 90 percent of it. He said "what is the other 10 %?" I said the loss of around $620,000.00 in taxes which I told him is quite significant in that we already pay $12,500.00 in RT property taxes and as retired persons on a fixed income, that is slowly becomming completely onerous. I just wanted to share this information with everyone. There will be an article in tomorrows Daily Record on this "Olive Branch". I will be very interested to hear other peoples take on this after the article comes out.
I am surprised Ireland did not offer to change the paint color. lol
He pretends to hear the concerns of the community. Yet, he can only cut the size of the school. What about the banquet hall, cafeteria, TV studio, gymnasium, 3000 – 4000 seat sanctuary, sports fields, book store, etc?
He offered to cut the height of his towers which are more than double the legal height. I wonder how far he would be willing to cut his plans to accommodate the town?
If CC’s application is scaled back and the application is approved will RT have the ability to prevent CC from expanding. CC can use all the same arguments (RLUIPA) to justify expansion, however, RT will not have the same legal foothold to say no to their expansion plans. Very simple research into other RLUIPA cases yield this scenario. The town will not be able to stop CC from expanding once they move in.
This is my concern. I do not believe Ireland’s words/promises are credible. To this point he has not been forthright with information. I would go so far to say dishonest to the RT residents. His website contradicts his current application. I believe he has big plans for the future.
Forget the size of the classrooms, what about the rehailitation center for drug users, and sex offenders? Besides the traffic problem, I, hopefully like other residents, don't want the likes of these people in my community. Doesn't anyone remember reading that the "church" was going to provide a center like this?
I recall that the drug rehab was actually going to be counseling; the sex offender thing I've never heard of; perhaps it was the prisoner counseling thing.
That is in the prisons, not at the church--however, when the prisoners are released and want to go to a cool, big church...
I think you are getting a little out of hand with the sex
Offender and prisoner comments. The concern is solely with the size/scope and environment. He has suggested a very small compromise to his application. He will cut the size of the school by 25 rooms. Who is to say that he won’t add 30 rooms in a year? He has yet to justify why he need the rooms in the current plan.
If we put future growth aside, the application is still a problem. 5000 member campus will overload the existing infrastructure. This issue is very disturbing. It has become very political. Does Ireland truly believe that cutting the size of the steeples will satisfy the residents? They are a problem (more than double the legal limit of 45 feet), but they are not a major issue. I wish that was the only problem with there application. I am curious to see the outcome of this “olive branch”. It is politically motivated.
Was there an article about it in the Daily Record today? We do not get that paper, and I was hoping that I did not get "duped" yesterday by a so called "reporter." I assumed that he was the real thing and answered his questions. Someone please advise me. Thanks!
No olive branch will satisfy me. This church will do nothing for me except raise my taxes. We already have a dozen or so churches in the area that are only half full now. Rev. Ireland is quick to point out how the church will benefit the businesses of Rockaway. The problem is that the majority of Rockaway is residential, not commercial. What benefit does CC offer the residents of Rockaway. The answer is ZERO. The short sighted purpose of CC moving to Rockaway is for the exclusive benefit of the people of Montclair. Does Rev. Ireland truely believe that 3,000 people from Montclair are going to drive 45 minutes each way every Sunday to go to church? That might happen in the beginning but give it six months, his current congregation will get tired of the drive and start looking for a place closer to home. I would also venture to say that many of CC member utilize mass transit and can not get out here for sunday service if they wanted to. Rockaway doesn't need another church. The current supply is high and the demand, unfortunatley, is low. What we need is lower taxes. MUCH lower.
You guys should settle one the reasons you oppose the church; you look foolish.
Ted - you're looking foolish. Main reason #1 (90%) - traffic concerns. #2 (9%)- environmental impact - including water, light, and noise pollution. #3 (1%) All other concerns - steeple size, etc... It's been that way for a while. Those were the 2 main concerns I heard at the Copeland VORT meeting.
You complain about the steeple hieght, Ireland changes it and you aren't satisfied
Are you serious? Do you really think VORT was formed because the steeples were too big? You're deluding yourself if you do. It's been 95% about traffic from day 1.
you complain about the number of classrooms, Ireland reduces the number but you're still not satisfied
I've been a BIG complainer about the # of classrooms - because in my estimation, the 75 classrooms he was planning on building could hold a 1500 student K-12 school. You know about our school system Ted - what's the average class size in Rockaway Township? Multiplied by 75? I was afraid we'd not only have the huge church, but also daily traffic from a major K-12 school.
My biggest TRAFFIC (there's that nasty word again) fear has always been mostly about the future - how much they can grow to. Lowering the steeple does nothing to lessen the traffic. Reducing the number of classrooms DOES reduce that future chance that Rev. Ireland can have a MAJOR school there. On the other hand, there's no reason to think he won't be at the planning board in 5 years screaming RLUIPA (other than the fact that in 5 years, RLUIPA will probably not exist) and telling us that 50 classrooms is just not enough...
So - with the big fear being traffic generated by the site, here are some meaningfull compromises Rev Ireland can, but will most likely never make:
Put in less parking - with a written promise to never increase the available parking above a set number.
Build a smaller sanctuary.
Guarantee that there will NOT be video feeds from the sanctuary to the other large spaces.
Again - if he wants to offer an 'olive branch' (even the Daily Record had to put it in quotes - it's such a non-offer), let him offer something substantive.
Really Ted - You act as if all the fighting over the past few months - the hundreds of people showing up at the planning board meeting think the size of the steeples are the big concern. Are you really that ignorant of the facts?
I can not believe for a minute that you really believe some of the crap yo write. Do yo really think that the "olive branch" is anything more than another "look how cooperative I am" BS from the good reverend?
IT'S THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE STUPID!!!
Seems to me a well educated man like the good reverend would see that a 5,000 person (and growing) "flock", the lack of any growth projections or attempt to provide one, would be of concern. You keep focusing in on today's figures. Take a conservative growth projection, look at other existing CC Sunday traffic jams in NJ and tell me we should not be concerned.
Maybe your routes or mode of transportation will not be impacted, but many others will.
Don't believe the good rev is promoting growth? I encourage you to take a look at the video from his website. Pay special attention to the good rev's message at the end. Sounds like he's soliciting new members to me?
Steeple height and # of classroms were concerns that residents specifically noted but now you seem to say those aren't real concerns
Ted - Here's a hypthetical question for you. Do you think the owner of a movie theater is concerned about someone's cell phone ringing while the movie theater is burning down? Theaters do not like cell phones going off...but during the fire, there are much greater concerns. Yes - the steeple size is an issue, but come on....It's SUCH A MINOR one. Again, are you deluded to think that lowering the steeple size (Rev. Ireland did not say by how much - my guess is he'll still want to exceed zoning) is THE ISSUE that will get Rockaway Township behind the church! The number of classrooms IS a concern. The classrooms will generate weekday traffic, and as I've said before, he was planning on enough classroom size for 1500 students. So now we get 50 classrooms instead (is that the number? someone else posted it, but I have not seen it anywhere) - still enough space for 1000+ students, and still no guarantee that Rev. Ireland will not be demanding permission to build 50 more classrooms 5 years from now. It's easier to fight new construction under RLUIPA than it will be to fight the expansion that CC might ask for a few years down the road.
Further, it appears if a concern is expressed and CC responds it's either mistrusted or switched to some other concern. You need to stay more focused.
Ted - focus on this. The steeple height was NEVER a major issue. I am focused on the major issue. It's called TRAFFIC. How many cars will CC bring to Green Pond Road? How big will they grow in the future? What guarantee do we have that they won't demand (waving RLUIPA with their Becket Fund lawyers in tow) to build a mult-tiered 3000 car parking garage and expand the chapel to double it's size 5 years in the future?
If the Rev. wants to make REAL concessions, let him talk about parking spaces, chapel size, guarantees of how much they will expand (setting caps), and future growth. He hasn't even touched on the main concern which is the number of cars that will travel to 140 Green Pond Rd. today and in the future.
I know I'm clueless, but my impression of Mr. Ireland's "offer" is: it's nothing but a PR effort to make himself look gracious in the eyes of the non-involved public.
He's trying to make our town look like Ted's description: "No matter what that poor guy offers, they're still not happy! He's willing to compromise and they're not accepting it!"
The natural conclusion for those who aren't directly involved? "Wow, if that's the case, then there must indeed be ANOTHER motive..."
Ted hit the nail on the head as far as what the ignorant outside public will assume.
It's just silly that it came from a RT resident who knows better.
But I'm the clueless one, so take this with a grain of salt.
I know I'm clueless, but my impression of Mr. Ireland's "offer" is: it's nothing but a PR effort to make himself look gracious in the eyes of the non-involved public.
He's trying to make our town look like Ted's description: "No matter what that poor guy offers, they're still not happy! He's willing to compromise and they're not accepting it!"
The natural conclusion for those who aren't directly involved? "Wow, if that's the case, then there must indeed be ANOTHER motive..."
Ted hit the nail on the head as far as what the ignorant outside public will assume.
It's just silly that it came from a RT resident who knows better.
But I'm the clueless one, so take this with a grain of salt.
Do you live in the immediate vicinity of this site?
If not, then this whole dispute does not have any relevant impact on you. I wonder what is your true motivation?
Did you attend the meetings? Your comments suggest that you did not.
Traffic, pollution, the toll on infrastructure, quality of life issues are at stake. Why not address this instead of steeple height and numbers of classrooms?
Karen - I agree with your assessment. Ireland is just setting himself up for his lawsuit against the town. This is not a profer made in sincerity as an attempt to solve the real concerns of the Citizens of RT. Now he will be able to say "Look, I tried compromise, but what did the town do? It just kept on complaining about something else." I say that we just turn this guy down and let him sue us. Lets take it to the Supreme Court. Now, that will cost us a lot of money, but a lot less than the decrease in Housing Values that we are all looking at if this thing goes through. We have to "bite the bullet" on this one and slug it out over the next 3 to 5 years if we are to survive in this town. Just my opinion.
...and mine as well, all along. Court costs won't hold a candle in the long run, to what we all stand to lose in taxes, property value, quality of life.
And our time is worth something too, isn't it? How much time do you want to donate to this church, while you're sitting in their traffic?
Ted is and always has been ANTI-anything that the majority of people support. He gets his kicks by being the antagonist against whatever he can find. His mean spirited and libelous comments against VORT and its supporters should show everyone he is only a half step beyond the other one, TwitDavid. Ted, I believe, lives in White Meadow Lake, so he is not far from the CC proposed site and YES he does go to the meetings. I personally saw him at the last.
Irelands offer is an absolute joke. He already swore in the hearing that the number of students for the school was capped at 500. Who cares if he puts 500 kids in 50 classrooms or 150? Reusing vacant rooms is only good business sense and doesnt indicate any willingness to scale back his project. As for the steeples...Did anyone other then me wonder why, when that announcement was made, anyone in their right mind would announce such a plan in light of the already increasing opposition to the project? Well its obvious now. It was a give-a-way. He knows he wouldnt have gotten approval for the 100' steeples from the beginning so he threw them in as a throw-a-way to make it look like he is compromising something. I guess he thinks the people in RT are stupid country bumpkins and would all rally around him now that he is showing his flexibility. B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T. I'd personally like to stick his "Olive Branch" where the olives wont grow.
I do live in WML and not very far from 140 Greenpond; it is closer than Lake Telemark, however. I also attend St Simon's up past Lake End Road. So I frequently Drive past the site.
Now back to the point. Every time opponents raise a point, CC responds. At which point opponents balk and either change the issue or claim that Ireland is insincere. It's ponderous
PS I've attended every CC/PB meeting, every school facilities meeting, most regular BOE meetings (for 10yrs), and I occasionally attend council meetings. Do You? Or do you only attend when someting hits the front page?
Greetings from sunny Florida! I hope you all watch channel 12 and see Kim and John "respond" to the "olive Branch".
FYI As of today NOTHING has been submitted to the planning board, in terms of changes. There has BEEN NO CHANGE to the plans issued by Ireland and CC. This "olive Branch" is simply an attempt to appear that CC has "heard our concerns". They have not been listening very well if they think these items are going to change anyones views of this extremely large project.
Also, tED please note that Ireland said that a business plan was done, therefore there are growth projections. However, Ireland stated very clearly that he will not share that information with the town.
ENVIRONMENT, TRAFFIC, INFRASTRUCTURE, and TAXES. We stated in September that these were our concerns and they remain our top issues.
A few less classrooms changes nothing. ALSO please note that in our meeting with Ireland in September he told us the height of the towers and stated that they could be lower if needed. Therefore it is my opinion that he never intended 100 feet and that he was holding that minor issue to "offer us" as a form of compromise.
