Jane is a citizen of RT and she likes to shop. The stores that she likes to shop at happen to be on the other side of town from where Jane lives. She happens to live down near the current Townsquare Mall location. But Jane has lived in this spot for 40 years. And many years ago, Jane had a nice, easy trip to her favorite shopping spot.
But then things changed.
Many citizens decided "We need a mall" . We need the biggest mall in Morris County. And maybe the town fathers realized that traffic would increase around the mall, but they said "Hey, it's progress! The citizens of Morris County need to have the Freedom to SHOP!".
But Jane said "What about MY freedom to shop?" "I don't like to shop at Malls, I already have a place to shop!"
But the Town Fathers said "No matter, Jane, the developers bought this land here, and they can build a mall if they want to." "And sure, you may be slowed down a bit on your way to your favorite shopping place, but you'll get there."
So the mall indeed increases the "Freedom to Shop" for some, but decreases the "Freedom to Shop" for others, like Jane.
And it is the same here with a church. You might be slowed a bit when travelling through that area on Sunday morning, but you won't be stuck in traffic "for hours".
This is the way the courts will look at this situation.
And remember this VERY IMPORTANT FACT: There is no "Freedom to Shop" Clause in the Constitution. But there is a Freedom of Religion clause. And that means that a town has WAY MORE control over stopping large shopping malls, than they do over stopping a church.
Lets' suppose The CC freedom to practice their religion impacts the traffic on the Green Pond Rd corridor, and I have lived on the northend of the Green Pond Rd corridor for 30 years. Now I am faced with traffic, not only Sundays (with 2 services) and possibly more as they grow. My health isn't good anymore, I am faced (or my family) with calling 911 on a Sunday morning, am I to die because the ambulance that is carrying me the the hospital cannot get through in time?
Well, how many deaths have happened because emergency vehicles can't get through the Mall Area?
How about all the other mega-churches out there? Any deaths reported in the traffic jams around there?
How about the big fire on Rt 80 in Denville 2 years ago? That shut down Rt 80 for a few months or more, didn't it. As I recall there was a long period of time when traffic was packed all through the Green Pond area. It backed up way down Meridan Road and many other side roads. Hundred of thousands of cars flow through that area every day.
Tell me, how many people died during that time because they couldn't get to the hospital?
And of course, that situation caused MUCH more traffic than CC will ever bring. And it was EVER DAY OF THE WEEK, TWICE A DAY.
You need to stagger out of the haze of anger that you live in and see the issues in the light of day.
(Well, how many deaths have happened because emergency vehicles can't get through the Mall Area?)
Who knows!!!? I'm sure the hospitals don't keep a running tally of emergency vehicles stuck in traffic/how long it took to arrive/how many died because of it. Your question is unanswerable.
I think the point is that ALL efforts must be made to keep traffic flowing smoothly. This is common sense wherever you go, and regardless of the circumstances.
(How about all the other mega-churches out there? Any deaths reported in the traffic jams around there?)
Probably not--traffic would have to be moving to cause a death in the traffic jam.
But who knows how many people suffered or even died because of a delay in getting an emergency vehicle through their traffic?
I'd hate to see an ambulance try to get through the mess in Sayreville, for one.
(How about the big fire on Rt 80...)
That was a traffic nightmare for all of us, especially those who live in the area.
(Tell me, how many people died during that time because they couldn't get to the hospital?)
Who knows, again!?
(And of course, that situation caused MUCH more traffic than CC will ever bring. And it was EVER DAY OF THE WEEK, TWICE A DAY.)
That was an emergency situation, because of the closing of that section of route 80. It was certainly NOT done by choice.
You can believe people would have been speaking out about it if it weren't for the last-resort nature of that situation.
first of all...shopping is NOT a freedom...so your scenario is void from the get go.
i can't imagine anything else would need to be said. but - i'll go this far...the mall pays taxes...EVERYONE can go to the mall and even get a job at the mall...the mall provides a service to the community it has made its home...the church has nothing to offer and will only take away...no taxes...traffic...road maintainance the church will not contribute to...
i'm sorry...the church will let us use a field - when it's convenient for them...
There you go again! Sorry, but TAXES DON'T MATTER.
Here's a trick that will help you to accept the inevitable: Forget about taxes concerning this issue.
The Mall will hire anybody -
Really? How about if a fat, hairy 50 year old guy who can't see to well wants to work at Victoria Secret? Think he'll get hired?
And don't you think that ALL companies discrimate in the hiring process? They discriminate based on whether the applicant is qualified for the job. Financial companies require those who know finances, Hospitals hire people who know medicine, etc. So why shouldn't christian organizations hire those who embrace christianity? Those who can further their purpose to preach the Gospel? Of course they should. And that's why the law says they can.
Taxes--can't be considered by the board but they sure as hell matter to us. We'll discuss it as much as we like, thanks!
And to the best of my knowledge, a store is NOT permitted to discriminate against the fat hairy guy as long as he's qualified to do the job.
If he doesn't see "to good" ("not spelling to good" and "not using grammar to good" would indeed be criteria for disqualification because writing and speaking properly are probably part of the job description), then he's probably in an even better position because of the Americans with Disabilities Act.
and while taxes might not matter legally...they matter to me, my family and my neighbors...and i am allowed to discuss them b/c i have FREEDOM of speech.
i have seen some scarey people working in stores at the mall...just about anyone can get a job there...not necessarily at ANY store...
if ireland cared one little bit about this town...that he wants to come into...if he cared to be a decent neighbor...he would put a cap on size...and offer to do some road maintainance...something that actually gave back...a small attempt to compensate the people of RT...
Since when is being a Christian required to teach reading, writing & arithmatic? You can't tell me that everyone will teach "religion" or that it is an active part of core subjects - at least here on earth.
Most good companies discriminate based on whether the applicant will further the goals of the company.
The goal of christian churches should be to spread the Good News. So they ARE ALLOWED BY LAW to hire those who they feel will do that.
The Goal of Christian schools should be to educate children and show them, by example, what a Christian should act like. You certainly wouldn't want an Atheist teaching history there, now would you? We know the church wouldn't.
As for taxes, you can talk about it 'till you're blue in the face (which has probably already happened) but please remember: you are wasting your time. really, you are.
go ahead and run this through your spell checker, Karen honey, I'm sure you'll find a typo or to (sp?) . And when you find it, I hope it brings some happiness to you
i thought we were talking about a church - not a company...guess i was mistaken...ireland is in it for profit...so YOU'RE RIGHT!!!! it is best compared to a company!!!!
a good person...does exemplify a good christian (no matter what their religious choice)...i went to catholic school since the 7th grade...including a catholic college...not all of my teachers were catholic...
Freedom to Shop? ROTFL! Pretty screwy idea. I wonder why that one is not in the US or State Constitution(s)? Maybe we need to ammend it or them in order to include that most basic of human rights?
Gee, do ya' think your company discriminated based on programming skills when it hired you? Or did they just pick any schmoe off the street and say "Hey, let's have him maintain our software"
what a hoot!
Please tell me you guys are just pretending to be this ignorant and you really don't believe all this stuff that you are saying!
Duh to the programmer-if you could follow the flow someone said " Financial companies require those who know finances..." to prove a point about the church not hiring non christians. My point was to show that you don't have to know all the particulars. A non christian could work for the church in the office, teaching (non religious courses of course), etc., religion shouldn't matter. It's skill, you know, like the skill of Ireland to brainwash his people into thinking he's a loving, christian man.
Your scenerio is absurd. The mall area was developed with that in mind. It was undeveloped before, nothing was there. Multi-lane road improvements were put in and it was situated in a non-residential area with multiple major highways for access. Dont get me wrong, it is being overdeveloped in my opinion now. Traffic is becomming a nightmare but they are a tax paying, job producing, favorable commerce entity overall. That has nothing to do with replacing another corporate, tax producing, site with a non-taxpaying, no benefit, producing nothing but problems enterprise like CC. And dont start harping about taxes dont matter because they do. Just because they are not a reason for a planning board to deny an application does not mean that it is a non-issue for the residents or the town overall.
a litttle difference there. At least the mall has something to offer the residents. Plus, the MAJORITY of the residents actually WANT the mall in rockaway.
It is legal to higher someone for a church that is a specific religion (in the case of a Jewish Temple, one person on staff MUST be a non-Jew to assist with duties during high holidays). I did do some checking on this, with some VERY interersting conclusions. The Metro Jewish Center (Rt. 10 Whippany) Highers regardless of religion as does the Arch Diocese in Paterson, and each and every church I called in Rockaway Twp.
Just because you CAN does not mean it is the right thing to do ethicly.
FYI DISCRIMINATION is NOT defined by NOT highering someone who does not have the skills to do the job (as was posted earlier). SOme people are not the appropriate candidate for a job due to experience, skills, attitude or lack of technical ability.
I personnally can not see how ANYONE can denie a person a job they are QUALIFIED for based on how they choose to pray. IE on the CC website was a postion for an Admin. Assistant, tape editor and a dance teacher... how can one say that the manner in which they pray will adversely affect thier ability to do a job.
This law has been challanged in various courts and I feel that CC would NOT be successful in defending the policy. Why you ask. Because they require membership to their church and membership REQUIRES tithing of 10%. Therefore you are required to give your employer 10% of your income back. The Wage and Hour division does not look favorable on this, nor does the State of NJ Dept of Labor. I have spoken to several people and they will be happy to take a case should one be presented to them.
Time will tell... Oh yes on the original posting here "freedom to Shop"...get a life and stop your foolish arguments.
I agree that most religions do not discriminate based on religion in their hiring practices. Your examples are very good and I know them to be true in the case of the Jewish and Catholic religions - -ie these religions do not discriminate in their hiring practices based on religion. Ireland is a religious biggot and for a ver good business reason. He gets back 10 % of the salary before taxes of every one of his employees. Remember, he is running a business and not really a church. His church is just a "wolf dressed in sheeps clothing". Is he unethical? Absolutely. Can he do this legally? Of course because he has his legal church status. It seems that churches can pretty much do anything that they darn well feel like doing. This brings to mind the concept of "what is the difference between a murderer and a terrorist?" The only difference is that one just plain kills while the other kills in the name of religion. Killing in the name of religion is more OK than just plain killing in the eyes of some people. on the planet.
