Whinny-"Unfairly singled out" for tough questioning by the board. Hmm, does threatening to sue RT from the beginning make the board very, very careful?
Does CC's unpreparedness cause a lot of questioning trying to get answers from them?
And then to compare GPR with the Mall. Give us a break Whinny. If he went any lower he'd be looking up.
01/25/05 - Posted from the Daily Record newsroom Christ Church: Board's review process unfair
By Rob Jennings, Daily Record
ROCKAWAY TWP. -- Christ Church of Montclair charged Monday that a "double standard" is being used by the planning board in reviewing its controversial mega-church building plan on Green Pond Road.
The church's spokesman, Marc Weinstein, issued a statement that offered no specifics but said the church was being "unfairly singled out" for tough questioning by the board.
Weinstein assailed the lengthy public hearing process, which began in Dec. 2003, as "akin to a Congressional inquiry" and equated it to "a three-ring circus."
Mayor Louis Sceusi rebuffed the criticism and noted that Christ Church requested a three-month delay last summer to assess the impact of a new state law limiting development.
Sceusi said township officials were committed to a fair review of the 5,000-member church's building plan, which has generated extensive opposition from local residents.
"It's just another remark from their public-relations agency," Sceusi said, referring to Weinstein.
Christ Church's building proposal includes a 2,512-seat sanctuary, private K-5 school and recreational facilities at the 107-acre, former Agilent Technologies site on Green Pond Road. The church reached a $14 million agreement with Agilent in June 2003.
An 11th public hearing on the church's plan will take place Jan. 31.
The board spent six hearings last year fielding testimony on a question posed by its attorney, William Dimin -- whether Christ Church was too large to be considered under a local ordinance establishing churches as a conditional use throughout the township.
Christ Church's attorney, Wendy Berger, said there was no evidence to the contrary and Dimin eventually recommended that the board retain jurisdiction.
At the 10th hearing in December, Dimin asked Berger to provide biblical evidence that two towers proposed atop the sanctuary would qualify as "religious symbols." The church said that the towers should be exempted from the township's 45-foot height limit.
Weinstein charged that township officials were being especially thorough with Christ Church in order to stall and placate local opponents.
"We believe township officials have acted capriciously in their treatment of zoning applications. On one hand, they have ostensibly turned a blind eye to the proliferation of big-box retail stores in the township," Weinstein said.
"Some of these commercial establishments have been accused of creating quality-of-life issues such as traffic congestion and environmental problems," said Weinstein, alluding to charges that some have leveled at Christ Church.
Sceusi responded that stores approved to build in the township faced a tough inquiry. The mayor added that if the board's questioning of Christ Church at times appeared contentious, it was because "their representatives did not seem prepared with some of the information."
"We're proceeding as we would with any other application," Sceusi said, adding that plans for a Wal-Mart, Target and other big-box stores were extensively reviewed and discussed.
Dimin did not return a phone call Monday. The board's chairman, Mort Dicker, declined comment.
Sceusi said the Christ Church hearings had been slowed by factors outside the board's control. A civic group, Voices of Rockaway Township, hired an attorney to represent it and question those testifying at the hearings.
Also, due to widespread public interest, the board was forced to hold hearings elsewhere than the municipal building -- first at Morris Knolls High School in Denville and later at Copeland Middle School.
"We have had two standard meetings every month. They have had one," Sceusi said of Christ Church.
Christ Church sought a 3-month recess last summer to revise its plans and seek an exemption from the new state Highlands law, which the Department of Environmental Protection granted in September. The township is appealing the DEP's decision.
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The truth wins out over slick PR and personal attacks.
The Christ Church Plan for the redevelopment of 140 Green Pond Rd is just too big for the area.
Are we sure that Marc Weinstein is not Jewish?? He sure has a lotta Chuptzah! Nah, he can't be Jewish since he is on their payroll. I forgot, Christ Church discriminates in its hiring practices against Jews. Sorry ~
"We believe township officials have acted capriciously in their treatment of zoning applications. On one hand, they have ostensibly turned a blind eye to the proliferation of big-box retail stores in the township," Weinstein said.
OK, Paid PR Hack, lets compare facts:
Stores at the MallCC Proposal for 140 Green Pond Road
Generate Tax Revenue Depletes over 630K a year in current revenue
Has ample access and infrastructure In a mostly residential area with single lane access
Part of RTs master plan Not part of any RT plan
Applicants provide honest plans Applicant trying to bamboozle the board
Environmentally sound area Environmentally sensitive area
Borderes Rt 80 Borderes Wetlands and residential homes
Willing to comprimise as needed Threatened to sue the town and board members
Employs workers without discrimination Workers must belong to the "club"
Residents want new mall stores Residents do not want a Mega Anything on GPR
I'm sure there is more. This is just what comes to mind.
Well stated BR. I think it just shows their desperation. Another meeting is coming up and they are again trying to stir the waters. Rational is right, Whineystein definitely has brass ones. Especially for charging, what I'm sure is a small fortune, for providing such "quality" PR representation. With PR reps like him, half-assed architects, and supporters like Dooty, and Russ, given time they will defeat themselves. Way to go guys.
Two words - Master Plan - we as a township are allowed to guide our own destiny, are we not? County road or not, if a project is not in line with responsible growth, our town has the resposibility to us residents to guide growth in the right direction. Just my opinion - the courts will let us know about townships rights in a few years.
One other point. If GPR gets clogged due to CC, it is not the residents of Morris county that are particularly stuck in the gridlock, but the residents of RT mostly. But, ire-land could not care less. We not only loose our tax revenues, but have to spend that and much, much more to accomodate his wonderful presence in our Township. Whatta Deal! It will be a real pleasure to be his servant.
Oh Dweller. You just blew it. I lost what respect I had for you after that last post. How off base and out of touch could you possibly be! Regardless of whether the Planning Board can consider the lost tax revenue or not, does NOT make it an unimportant issue or reduce its impact on us as residents of RT. We will have to make up that -2% of our tax base. The ridiculous notion that the CC members will spend millions at the mall and restaurants, even if it were true, does not reduce my property tax bill or replace that 2%. And secondly, the congestion on GP Rd. shouldnt concern us because its a county road. How absurd a statement could you possibly make! We have to travel that road several times a day, every day. We live here and have lived her for years. Myself for almost 30 yrs. What gives Ireland the right to come into my town and disrupt my life? County road, right. A narrow, winding county road, that I dont want to see undue congestion on or another traffic light. I strongly object to granting any private organization the right to regulate traffic under state law, which is what giving them a light would be doing. This is not a public facility or an intersection of roads, its a private mega-corporation who no more deserves the priveledge of a traffic light than I do to allow my Saturday night poker buddies out of my driveway when they leave. I can appreciate someone disagreeing, but please base it on some logic and common sense and not some nonsensical PR B.S.
I'm not sure if Dweller agrees with what CC says, or is just stating their position. Either way you can add another to the list. Ireland legally has a right to endorse and practice religious discrimination in his employment policies. Another example of what may be legal, is not necessarily moral or in the best interest of others.
Funny that his Legal Council and PR Hack can represent him, but can't slop food in his cafeteria or clean his toilets.
I wonder if the Presbyterian religion endorses Employment discrimination as a function of religious preference. I can tell you that the Jewish religion, of which I am an active participant in a certain congregation, does not practice that kind of discrimination. As a matter of fact, the congregation to which I belong, along with other Jewish congregations which I am aware of, do not maintain such a practice, as it would be immoral to do so. Specifically, I know of a number of Christians who hold positions in the organizations of Jewish peoples in our area. You may ask, am I passing judgement on so called religious organizations that discriminate based on the religious preference of its employees? Well the answer is, "you are damn right I do." Those sanctiminous a$$holes who claim to be running a moral and G-d fearing organization and practice religious discrimination in their hiring practice are a bunch of religious fakes, phonies and frauds. And that does not take a humble opinion to conclude. It is a FACT.
If you think that I am full of crap, specific names of individuals can be provided by me upon request of those who are Christian and work for Jewish congregations, subsequent to the specific Christian employees of these Jewish Congretations agreement of the same. The Christians that I know of who work for Jewish orgs and congretations are proud to work for these Jewish orgs and these Jewish orgs are very please that talented people like these folks will work for them. Please e-mail me if you need some Christian names of people who work full time for Jewish Congregations at:
I will find out if the people that I know in that circumstance want their names revealed.
In the mean time, I can not wait for an org like CC to take over this town and practice their form of discrimination. It will be very interesting to watch folks reaction who think that this practice is perfectly legal and kosher and moral.
My Assessment of the Basic Attitude of CC: Join us or you are Screwed and will go to hell; only we hold the truth; that is not only by our estimation, but even the L-rd our G-d agrees that only CC is divine. (Not that the G-d entity really matters here)
BR is correct (thanks for sticking up for me BR)... I was not giving my opinion... I was quoting/paraphrasing what I heard Rev. Ireland say himself ( I have been monitoring this from within the evangelical community & had the opportunity to hear him speak on this matter).
I was curious to get everyone's take on his comments.
Thanks
PS Despite the letter from the church in the boro, it is widely known that most of the church leadership in the area has switched from pro cc to neutral & is now largely against them coming... cc knows this for a fact ... I guess they hope the endorsement helped them, but what I think they fail to realize is that RT feels they have no integrity & all their attempts at reconciliation are now being seen as PR ploys... they have to play the PR game... they know that the worst thing for them is to have to "sue" their way into town
Glad you clarified that Dweller. My faith is restored and I didnt even have to go to church for it to be.
I think you will be seeing a followup article in the DR. I got a call from Mr. Jennings tonite. He is contacting all of the other clergy in the area for comment. Didnt get an indication which way the others went on the issue. The Presb. Minister was also giving an interview to News 12 restating what he said in his letter. I didnt see it, but I overheard parts of it from another room today. As I told Rob, I am offended by someone who only recently came to the area, doesnt live in the area, who's church isnt in RT, condemning me for sticking up for my rights and defending the quality of life in my town. I am fine if he wants to warmly welcome any new church into the area with open arms. Thats fine, just dont go as far as he did by overtly chastising us when he isnt involved or directly effected at all. I think they overstepped their bounds considerably with the level that they took it to. The fact that it was done at Ireland's request, just further reaffirms what we all suspected about him.
