I will give you some additional information, however for obvious reasons (hello Mr. Weinstein) I will not “show our hand” as it will be counter productive to our objectives.

Let it be said that some members of Christ Church are not happy with the actions of the leadership of the organization.  Some have taken it upon themselves to verbalize this personally (some by written documentation) and/or others have left or seek to leave for new opportunities and/or new houses of worship. 

Interestingly a person involved with the “community relations, crisis communications and reputation management program for Christ Church, a non-denominational Christian Church with more than 5,000 congregants, focusing on its move from Montclair to Rockaway Township, New Jersey” has clearly indicated that enough is enough. 

A second person involved with creating a plan that utilizes their current network / infrastructure and position this organization with a defined process that will support the move to another facility in the near future.  Has also taken steps to separate himself from this organization.

Some of these people are very well meaning and had no idea of the environmental issues surrounding this property when they became involved. Some only became aware this past October when the Sierra Club stepped up with a formal resolution opposing the project.   They were also very concerned with traffic issues as they see them as directly affecting them each and every visit to the “campus” which by there accounts would be at minimum 2 times per week. They also have been told exactly what a previous poster suggested – that Voices of Rockaway Twp has a “hidden agenda” and that many in Rockaway have anger and dislike for people “like them”.  After talks with these people the conversations all ended the same way – we each wished each other well and were each glad to hear the others point of view.  This is why I have previously stated that I believe many members of Christ Church knows that there is no anger, dislike or intolerance toward them or there beliefs. They clearly saw that our concerns were based on SIZE, SCOPE, and MAGNITUDE.

We have much more specific information on many issues.  It must be clear to Christ Church that there is some rather disturbing information “out there”, why else would they need to mount a “reputation management program”. 

Have a great weekend!

Quoting RTDweller:

"I think its pretty well known that most of cc is not for coming here (too far & costs too much $$ )... "

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If most of the cc  flock is not coming here, who the heck does he think is going to be his flock?  I do not get it.  His flock certainly is not going to come from RT since our township already has plenty of HOW's including an Evangelical one.  Besides, he has pi$$ed everyone off so much in this town that even if we had no HOW's, hardly anyone would want to be affiliated with this enterprise.  What is his strategy?

rational... knowing people who have gone there & those who have friends who currently go there, most are against the move...BUT that does not mean they will not come (I never said that)... being against a church's plans & deciding not to attend it anymore are two different items.

cc knows they will lose a certain amount right off the bat... but they hope that is short lived.

I do agree with your point rational that the "bridges have been burned" with RT... that single point you raise would cause most pastors to take the "high road" and withdraw the application.

Your point is well made Jay... they are hoping to bring the majority of people from the current congregation, as well as those who left because of the hassle of the current facility (don't be surprised if that is thousands of people... mega turnover is very high) & now morris county people as well... not to mention the media/music plans may possibly draw hundreds of visitors each week (some churches rent buses & visit megas)

Rational

Please stop calling CC a "cult"  or "his Flock"  We understand you do not want them to come to Rockaway Twp.  It is only what they believe.  Can you just refer to them as his parishioners?

Kim

Craig,

</Soapbox ON>

What a shame.  Someone with your intelligence and IMHO, you do more harm to our township than good.  You complain of personal attacks from a Christ Church supporter (Matthew) long ago, and how do YOU respond - by leveling your OWN personal attacks - making blanket statements about 6000 people that you do not know.

Craig - It does NOT matter who they are.  It does not matter if they descriminate.  It does not matter what their philosophy is towards other religions.  These things are ALL CLEARLY MEANINGLESS in the eyes of the law.

Some interesting reading from http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/rel_liberty/free_exercise/index.aspx

 "Congress shall make no law … prohibiting the free exercise (of religion)" is called the free-exercise clause of the First Amendment. The free-exercise clause pertains to the right to freely exercise one’s religion. It states that the government shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of religion.

Although the text is absolute, the courts place some limits on the exercise of religion. For example, courts would not hold that the First Amendment protects human sacrifice even if some religion required it. The Supreme Court has interpreted this clause so that the freedom to believe is absolute, but the ability to act on those beliefs is not.

People are FREE to believe what they want.  You of course are also free to believe what you want, but continuing to level personal attacks on Christ Churchs' many parishioners, regardless of whether or not your attacks are founded, will only provide ammunition to those who support the applicant and will ONLY hurt Rockaway Township as it defends itself against the inevitable lawsuit that will be launched.

I also suggest you read up on the Supreme Court case of CHURCH OF LUKUMI BABALU AYE v. CITY OF HIALEAH (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=508&invol=520 )

As a quick overview, the church and its congregants practice the Santeria religion, which employs animal sacrifice as one of its principal forms of devotion.  The city passed an ordinance  banning the sacrifices.   The district court ruled for the city, but upon appeal to the Supreme Court, the judgement was reversed.

JUSTICE KENNEDY delivered the opinion of the Court concluding that the laws in question were enacted contrary to free exercise principles, and they are void.

The ruling of the Supreme Court to allow the Church of Lukumi Babalue Aye to perform animal sacrifice clearly SHOW how far the court system will bend over backwards to allow freedom of religion.  The freedom of religious THOUGHT - no matter what that thought is will not be limited by the courts.

Craig - As the article above stated, freedom to believe is absolute.  If Matthew's belief was that all Jews (myself included) will not go to heaven, then so be it - you and I are free to think him a fool or worse, but making blanket attacks on 6000 people, at a time when Christ Church's public relations firm is just LOOKING to show that people in Rockaway HATE who they are does not help the situation, and if anything, helps create more of an environment of mutual mistrust, fear, and hatred.

I implore you to keep your private beliefs private, and limit your public comments to the magnificent and unique viewpoint that only you can provide as a former HP/Agilent employee at 140 GPR and to discussions that are ADMISSIBLE in a planning board and a courtroom, ie those of size, scope, and impact.

</Soapbox OFF>

rational,

I can certainly understand your point of view when you say

"So, I do not understand the mindset that says, "well, I am against the move, but if it happens, I will travel to the Mega every Sunday anyway." 

it's sort of a difficult thing to explain... for many people, changing churches can be difficult... so they will live with the distance they have to travel instead of finding another church

Pastor Ireland is a dynamic speaker & alot of people in megas attend for that reason.... for some the "preaching & programs" are the only reason to attend a church.Having studied this for quite sometime now, I can tell you that cc is not a cult in either a "religious" or "sociological sense".

The fact that they are moving far is usually a big negative, but not enough of one for the vast majority of them to find another church....

Now the kind of mis-conduct Lisa spoke of is something people leave over, especially big benefactors... which is why it is important that RT tone down the "harsh/tough talk" & continue to focus on the issues...as Lisa stated "SIZE, SCOPE, and MAGNITUDE"

I am sorry if my remarks were not clear.

Quoting RTConcern:

"For Gawd's sake Craig, what is your malfunction? How are you any different from the anti-semites? The whole idea is to be better than the bottom dwellers. Show some respect to other's faith. If not why should you expect them to respect you?"

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No malfunction here.  I am the same as the antisemites in the sense that I do not have any respect for a group of people who do not have any respect my own beliefs.  As a matter of fact, this group completely looks down on some religions like Judaism and they will express outright that only they have the keys to the kindgom of G-d.   And, yes - - - this man does not have any respect for other groups as well.  He only cares about himself and the dogma that he has created.

But all of the above is way off the point of the discussion at hand.

Daniel (not Craig)

I will say my piece & await the replies, but will not reply to them (because of # 5 below)... but I have studied this mega trend for many years, know the culture & even been to some of the ones referenced in many of the mega articles

1) Flock is a totally acceptable term ... Craig is correct

2) credible sources have indicated that most of the cc montclair flock would prefer to  stay in montclair and/or Essex county, but many if not most love the ministry & will follow it to RT if permitted to build here... they like the teaching, the music & the various other programs

3) The strategy is to grow the church huge...and to have a very large music & media ministry...

4) It appears that this message board, nj.com & various quotes in the newspaper are being used by cc to make their case to the Christian community that:........ those against this project are against churches & the demographics of cc & not the issues at hand (this I heard pastor ireland say myself)... unfortunately this is being touted as "vort's" agenda

5) To quote Daniel (not Craig) "But all of the above is way off the point of the discussion at hand"..... is 100% correct... which goes back to my original sentiment that we should stick to the issues & not give them any ammunition to take the arguement away from the issues and problems we all know exist at the 140 GPR site... this will require a measure of restraint on everyones behalf.

thanks