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The "All Opinions are Welcome, but Sorry no Instigators" Board -> Rockaway Township Free Speech -> Whineing continues
Post Info TOPIC: Whineing continues
Lisa Salberg


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11/27/04 - Posted from the Daily Record newsroom
Christ Church blasts Web message

Calls posting of anti-Christian material 'appalling'

By Rob Jennings, Daily Record

ROCKAWAY TWP. -- Christ Church of Montclair reacted angrily Friday after an Internet message board used by opponents of its mega-church building plan ran a posting that included derogatory references to Christianity.

The Internet posting, made sometime Thursday or Friday by someone identified only as "RT Concern," featured a variety of images and statements that church spokesman Marc Weinstein decried as "horrendous and appalling."

It was yanked Friday afternoon by the site's moderator, Karen Stark -- but not before it was seen by dozens of site visitors.

The post featured a satirical image of Santa Claus being crucified, a picture of a baby with the notation, "Happy Birthday Baby Jesus -- please don't send us to hell," and a purported quote from Thomas Jefferson describing Christianity as "the most perverted system that ever shone on man."

"Relax, it is all in good humor," is how the anonymous posting ended. "Trust me, I think Jesus is able to laugh at himself once in a while."





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It was found on the same message board that, last spring, featured an "Open Letter to Jews" assailing the 5,000-member church's evangelical Christian beliefs.

Karen Stark did not return a phone call Friday. Posters are required to register, and Stark reserves the right to ban contributors deemed "instigators," such as local church supporter Ted Doty, who claims to have been barred months ago.

Weinstein charged that the posting was the latest in a series of comments, on the Internet and elsewhere, indicating that religious prejudice was driving local opposition to the church's building plan on Green Pond Road.

"It's our feeling that the issue is not about the environment. It's not about taxes. It's not about infrastructure. It's about people who are intolerant of other people's religious beliefs," Weinstein said.

Voices of Rockaway Township co-founder Lisa Salberg, who frequently posts on the site using her own name, said it was not her responsibility to denounce any of the other posts.

Salberg, her husband, Adam, and Kim and John Jenkins formed Voices of Rockaway Township last year to oppose the church building plan.

Salberg said that many posters on the message board are anonymous and suggested there was no way to know whether a Christ Church supporter might be behind the latest controversy.

"How do we know it wasn't done by Christ Church? How do I know they didn't put it there? They've been playing some pretty strange propaganda," Salberg said.

Weinstein responded that "neither Christ Church or anyone connected with the church would post anything as inflammatory as that posting," adding that virtually all postings on the site appear to be made by church opponents.

Weinstein said that Voices of Rockaway Township had de facto control of the message board, a charge Salberg denied.

While Stark's band, Frankie Goes to Englewood, performed at last month's Voices of Rockaway Township fundraiser, Salberg said her group was totally separate.

"I have absolutely no authority over what goes on or doesn't go on," Salberg said of the message board, which is called the "All Opinions are Welcome But Sorry No Instigators" board.

Weinstein said building plan opponents had a responsibility to condemn inappropriate comments made by their supporters.

"They could have nipped this in the bud a long time ago if someone had said we will not tolerate these kinds of incendiary comments," Weinstein said.

Salberg countered that the church was seeking to capitalize on the incident, saying, "It looks to me they are looking for anything to get their names in the newspaper."

Weinstein said the fact that the posting was seemingly only the work of one person did not diminish the church's outrage over the incident.

"It was also one person who also tried to persuade Jews in the community to rise up against the church," Weinstein said.

A 10th planning board hearing will be held Dec. 20 on the church's proposal, which includes a 2,512-seat sanctuary, private K-5 school and other facilities.

Rockaway Township is appealing a decision by the state Department of Environmental Protection to exempt the plan from the new Highlands law, which places strict limits on development on a 395,000-acre area including the church site.



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The truth wins out over slick PR and personal attacks. The Christ Church Plan for the redevelopment of 140 Green Pond Rd is just too big for the area.
Rockawaytwprocks


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After a few calls to some friends I found this message board - boy do you have it hidden  - you may want to make it easier to find. 


Anyway I read this article today and was so angry that I needed somewhere to vent.  Who is this Weinstein guy and why does he think he has a right to dictate what is said and how people "should" respond to the jokes, opinions and words of others.   I for one am opposed to the plan for Christ Church to move to Rockaway for several reasons and with this type of action my list is growing by the minute!  It is just too big, the traffic will be way too much, the environment is very important to me and everything I have seen shows this will not benefit the land and will hurt the land and water  - was thrilled to see the Seirra Club sign on to the opposition! My latest reason is that I really am afraid of what we all have in store when and if they move in and what they will be doing to MY freedom of speech and MY freedom of religion.  I have never seen a church outright tell people what they can and can not say and how others should respond...I know my house of worship would never cross that line. 


The newspaper said there was  a picture of Santa on a cross - Hey that is the most PRO religion message I can think of - to me it means get a grip the holiday is NOT about Santa it is about Christ - To me it is a message of the over commercialization of the holiday season.  That is PRO christian if you ask me. 


 



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RT Rocks!
Rational


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Most importantly, we are permitted to maintain and express the most detestful opinions in this country since opinions are relative.  Also, this right is protected by our constitition.


CC will bring to RT political correctness run absolutely amock.  We have already seen multiple instances of it occur.  They not only want to control the destiny of the towns assets and resources, but they want us to shut up about it too.


In short, "put-up AND shut-up" is their view of RT residents and our position in their world.



-- Edited by Rational at 09:53, 2004-11-27

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THINKER


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I admit the posting was not really in good taste, however just the fact that this mega church has the money to try and do what they are doing is the most derogatory aspect of Christianity I've seen. Making money off of religion is very appalling. Using member's donations for PR firms, lawyers, pay offs, mailings and such is about the lowest form of "religion" you can have. Trying to bully your way into a town that cannot support such a mega center because of its size, doesn't represent christianity to me. For everything that Whiney put down about that posting, is just as bad as what's been coming from his employers.


"Weinstein responded that "neither Christ Church or anyone connected with the church would post anything as inflammatory as that posting," adding that virtually all postings on the site appear to be made by church opponents."


How does he know? I think someone trying to run a town into ruination is very inflammatory. Anyone with half a brain knows that CC is just TOO BIG for the area. That's all it comes down to. Anything that wants that property and supports 5000+ people will be too big, no matter if it's a church, office or whatever. It's not prejudice, it's simple fact. I wish CC would be really Christian and realize that instead of spinning it in all different ways in their favor.



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fyrral


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Life and politics are so much more intresting when the lunatic fringe participates, aren't they? (Just look at the last election.) This is fast becoming, or has ALREADY become more an issue of "my lawyer is better than your lawyer" than it is about the REAL ISSUES. It's best to ignore the lunatic fringe and accept them for what they are and not let them steer the debate.

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karen


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Oh brother!


I don't know where to begin.


WHAT?! I didn't take the post down fast enough?!


Am I Hindu? Muslim? Jew?


I'm a Christian myself and like I said earlier, I have enough perspective in all this not to be offended by someone's stupid cartoons.


I believe it was seen by the church as an opportunity to gain press.


They saw how successful they were at gaining the front page when Craig made his comments.


They figured they'll do the same now.


RTConcern, I'm not banning you for a couple of reasons--first, your posting history isn't any more instigating or inflammatory than anyone else's. I think this was just a one-time deal.


Second, I'm still not entirely comfortable banning free speech, except where it is obviously being posted in a deliberate attempt to cause problems and take focus off the real issues.


I CANNOT believe that the church thinks RT is anti-Christian.


I believe that a smaller establishment like a Hindu Temple, or a Mosque, or perhaps even a Synagogue could argue that.


But Christianity is incredibly widespread and commonly accepted, it's ridiculous to think any community in the United States would be anti-Christian.


p.s. My neighbor just brought by a letter from Ted Doty. Anyone else get theirs?



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Rational


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Quote from Karen:


"I CANNOT believe that the church thinks RT is anti-Christian."


------------------------------------------------------------------------


I do not believe that they really believe that RT is anti-Christian.  They are just posturing and getting ready for their civil lawsuit.  I bet that we see an action initiated against RT shortly.


As  I have said before, there is a good chance that this entire fiasco is about creating the proper environment for a successful and profitable lawsuit against our township.  More specifically, there is a good chance that Ireland never had any real plans to build a Church in RT - - - just to set up a lawsuit scenario.



-- Edited by Rational at 11:10, 2004-11-27

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THINKER


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Maybe I'm naive and stupid, but a lawsuit for what? What has RT done? Isn't the whole issue that CC is too big for RT? Anyone who sees the town will know that. Our infrastructure cannot handle it. How can CC sue for that? Many towns around couldn't support the size of CC, so does that mean CC can sue all towns that cannot handle their size? Doesn't make sense to me.

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Rational


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It's really quite simple.  The lawsuit will be based on two elements:


1. The township interfered with their right to free religious expression through their planning board activities of dragging their feet on the approval of their project.  They will use RLUIPA as their legal basis for this element of their lawsuit.


2. The township is racist which prevented them from continuing building their dream.  Ireland has already gone on record that he believes this to be true.


Number two will afford them the right to ask for treble damages.  See an earlier post that I placed on this venue that shows the entire formulae for calculating total damages in this kind of lawsuit should they win.


 



-- Edited by Rational at 11:18, 2004-11-27

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THINKER


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How can they prove any of this? It's not their religious expression that is in question. It's their size. RT has many different churches, so how can they say we are stopping them from their religious practices? If they cut about 4000 members, there wouldn't be a problem. Other towns are fighting building for the same reasons we in RT are. Why doesn't CC stay in Montclair? Oh, the church will be too big for Montclair to handle?? Hmm, haven't we been saying that? Why doesn't he sue Montclair?


Also, how can they prove racism? Again, we are fighting the magnitude of this undertaking, not the people. And that's why CC is bringing attention to anything we do. But how many people are siding with them? I think the majority of people are on our side cause they sure wouldn't want the same thing to be happening in their towns. Imagine the devastation to our infrastructure if CC gets in and grows & grows. We might as well close GPR cause you won't be able to use it. Our resources will all be used up, our taxes will increase and for what?  We will not be benefiting from this mega center at all. Seems too big a price to pay for something that will have no advantages for us.



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Rational


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Thinker,


The laws do not mention whether or not such a business has any benefit to the town in which it situates itself.  That is completely irrelevent.  Also, I did not say that they would succeed in their lawsuit, but you can bet your ass that they are going to TRY to get megabucks out of us in a civil suit.  That should be abundantley clear to everyone, especially after the threatening letter written to the planning board and its individual members threatening suit unless they approved the project.


Here is a hint of things to come - - - recently, I read a quote from Ireland (in the last week or so).  In that quote (and I do not remember it exactly) he mentioned, in passing, that he had planned to break ground in May of 2004 and that has not happened yet.  Do you think that was an accidental statement, or a projection of things to come in the lawsuit.  In other words, he is already planting a marker on the time line and beginning to add up his losses from that day forward, folks.


But, time will tell.  I predict an action will be filed by cc against RT within the next two months.



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