I have to apologize for a prior post where I said that you hadn't explained your view on how you'll get to Heaven. I realize now that you have made that view very clear.
You said that you "trust God" to be the judge of whether, at the end of your days, you'll be granted entry into Heaven.
I believe you implied that you followed the Jewish laws as best as you could and relied on God to make the judgement on whether you had been "good enough".
I just want to make sure I understand your view on this. Does this mean that you have no idea exactly "how good" you have to be and how many laws have to be obeyed and how often?
So in your view, God has a standard that we should all follow (according to our abilities), but He doesn't let us know to what degree we should follow it?
This seems like being given a test at school where the instructor says, "I'm not telling you how good you have to do to pass, but after you're done, I'll let you know if you made it"
Meaning at the end of your life, God may condemn you to Hell if you fall short by just one incorrect decision or action? Maybe in your case you needed to score 80% but you only made it to 79% percent so God says, "Well, nice try, better luck next ti-- , oops, there is no next time, sorry, you lose" ?
So the final outcome is basically crapshoot? If we are lucky enough to have been good enough then God let's us in? This is how it's determined whether we spend eternity in endless joy or in constant torment?
That seems a bit cruel, doesn't it?
And what about Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists and others? Does it work the same way for them?
Do they have to follow the Jewish laws, or do they follow the laws of their own religion?
But what about someone who switches religions? If a Jew converts to Hinduism, then they can follow the Hindu laws and still get into Heaven?
So maybe God instituted all the major religions and He says, "Pick the one you like best and do the best that you can" ? So which ones are His approved religions? Is Scientology OK?
And why do the rules differ greatly from one to another? For example, In Islam, the Qur'an says infidels should be killed. Does God agree with that rule?
Your views on admittance to Heaven really have gotten me thinking about all this stuff Craig. And it appears that you have a very good grasp on all this, so I really hope you will help me out with these questions.
And Jay also seemed to be pretty solid in his religious views, so, Jay, I would especially like to hear your thoughts on all this.
quote: Originally posted by: Karen "As for myself (and I acknowledge this wasn't directed at me), I believe I have a good and kind God. I Believe He knows me, and knows my intentions. I Believe He knows my weaknesses and my challenges. I Believe He knows how hard I work at being a good person, and that I do my best. I Believe He knows I use "expletives" to express myself sometimes. I Believe He knows I'm not perfect. I Believe He loves me anyway. I Believe He's going to look at the life I've lived and decide whether he wants to spend eternity with me, or not. Whether or not you believe those same things is irrelevant to me."
Karen,
So the Christian Bible is irrelevant to you?
And you have no idea if God will let you into Heaven?
You'll just keep trying to do good and hope for the best? You hope you'll be "good enough"?
So you can commit "a certain amount" of sins and God will still let you in, right? Because you were "pretty good"?
Couldn't Hitler get into Heaven this way? How do we know his heart? Maybe he was just being "as good as he could be"? Maybe he did his best, but he just made a lot of mistakes? But God loves him, so even though he messed up some, God could see that he really tried hard so he'll let him in, won't he?
Or is there a line somewhere between a somewhat bad person and a really bad person?
"Couldn't Hitler get into Heaven this way? How do we know his heart? Maybe he was just being "as good as he could be"? Maybe he did his best, but he just made a lot of mistakes? But God loves him, so even though he messed up some, God could see that he really tried hard so he'll let him in, won't he?"
we can't know his heart...only g-d does...we can assume what his heart was - cold and black...i'd guess (but that's what it would be) that he DID NOT get into heaven...
how good is good enough...g-d will judge...i will do my best to make him, my parents, grandparents, and children (if and when i have them) proud of the person i am...
do you think reading the bible gets you into heaven???
quote: Originally posted by: Matthew " I believe you implied that you followed the Jewish laws as best as you could and relied on God to make the judgement on whether you had been "good enough". I just want to make sure I understand your view on this. Does this mean that you have no idea exactly "how good" you have to be and how many laws have to be obeyed and how often? So in your view, God has a standard that we should all follow (according to our abilities), but He doesn't let us know to what degree we should follow it?"
Matthew,
I take it then, that in your view, we do not need to be good in life, we just need to fully accept Jesus before our death?
I take it from Matthew's comments in this thread that what he really wants is a guarantee of getting to heaven - without having to worry about things like how well he followed laws / how good a life he lead.
Is that your view Matthew? Believe in Jesus = get into heaven? No worries about the rest of your life?
Sounds like the frozen TV dinner approach to religion IMHO..
quote: Originally posted by: Jay R " Matthew, I take it then, that in your view, we do not need to be good in life, we just need to fully accept Jesus before our death?"
Jay,
For those who are offered the free gift of eternal life from God and say "No Thanks, maybe later, I'll just live as I please now", do you think they will ever accept it?
As far as I have learned, the concept of "Hell" is a Christian one. I have not encountered this concept in Judaism except as a manner of expression. So, going to "Hell" is not relevent to myself. I suspect that ones soul could be delayed entrance into heaven (sort of a form of purgatory) depending on G-ds view of how one lived his or her life. But ultimately, nobody knows, not a single one of us who have ever lived. It is all conjecture and these things must be taken on faith and faith alone while our bodies are alive.
I have my faith and you have yours. Let's just leave it at that since I am perfectly satisified to let G-d do what he wants with me since I trust G-d. We have our form of atonement in Judaism but only He knows what his plans are for our souls and we will only find out the fact of the matter after our bodies die.
Just like many Christians you have no idea what Judiasm is all about.
Yet, I as a Jew know about your religion.
Wonder why??? I'll tell you...because we take a moment to care what other have to say and not condemn them for their beleifs.
you said: "So the final outcome is basically crapshoot? If we are lucky enough to have been good enough then God let's us in? This is how it's determined whether we spend eternity in endless joy or in constant torment?"
Well how about this chump....I go and do drugs and screw up my families life completely...then the law says I need counseling to handle my addiciton...so I become born again,, and in doing so I automatically think I am better than anyone who has not become addictied to my latestes addiciton...THE CHURCH.
You guys kill me...rob, steal murder...lie and cheat... Now repent by saying you have accepted Christ into your life and all is forgiven.
SO to answer your question about a crap shoot...all you have to do is live a decent life, and things are good....purposly screw up and its over.
It's a grey area cause that's what life is.
The junk you and peoplelike you spew ....What a load of crap!
On the topic of atonement, in the Jewish religion one is required to put right sins from the previous year committed against our fellow man between the high holy days of Rosh Hashannah and Yom Kippur. That means apologizing or providing restitution to a person or group of persons for any harm that one may have had done to them by our actions. Only Sins against G-d must one take up directly with G-d (through davening).
Also, in Judaism, Jewish souls are treated no diffently compared to the souls of people of any other religion (or even no religion whatsoever). Everyone on this planet is viewed by this religion as being treated by G-d in the same way as it pertains to ones soul. Ie - one certainly does not have to be Jewish to have ones soul re-joined with G-d at the end of ones life.
I think that this is a large difference between Judaic and Christian teachings.
I am by no means a scholar on Judaism, so any of my fellow Jews, please feel free to comment on my understanding of the concepts stated above. I am sure that I have missed something!
A wise man once said " I believe in God, I just don't trust anybody that works for him".
Another wise man once said " Religions are like fingers pointing at the moon, the trouble is we spend too much time argueing about whose finger to look at, and not enough time gazing at the moon".
In the early 1940's, the late Woody Guthrie was in a hospital with his wife, and thier very young daughter who had been burned in a terrible accident. The nurse that was filling out the paperwork had asked Woody's wife what religion to put down on the form that she was filling out. Marjorie Guthrie told the nurse she didn't know. The nurse said she had to put something down on the form. Mrs. Guthrie told her to put "all" down. The nurse siad she could not do that. Mrs. Guthrie then told her to put "none". A while later when Woody came in, the nurse apporoached him with the same form and questions. Woody had not yet spoken to his wife about this, but ended up telling the nurse the exact same thing that his wife did before. "All or none".Woody had been raised a Christian, and Marjorie had been raised a Jew, and nobody had asked them before.
Thier young daughter died of her burns. Her parents, and her God, did not love that little girl any less because that form was not filled out to satisfy someone else.
That was a really interesting post. Thank you for sharing it. I hope some will think about that before they continue with the "my G-d is better than your G-d" fight.
quote: Originally posted by: Lisa Salberg "That was a really interesting post. Thank you for sharing it. I hope some will think about that before they continue with the "my G-d is better than your G-d" fight. Lisa"
Lisa,
If my posts were interpreted as 'my G-d is better than yours', that is definitely NOT what was meant. My questioning of Matthew begun when he put down all other religions claiming that he doesn't see other religions getting people to heaven...That's where the entire conversation of the past few days started...I questioned him further on who will get to heaven (questions which he refused to answer, although he claims he did...), he questioned me (I answered as best as I could) and many others chimed in.
My comment was made in general. It was not directed at any one person or a single belief. Debate and discussion on any topic can be productive, however when some posters are narrow minded it is not possible to 'debate' or 'discuss'.
You will not find me in the debate on religion as I am very comfortable with my own thoughts and beliefs and that is what matters to me. Those who attempt to frighten people in the name of religion are the ones I address my post above to. In my understanding of the spiritual realm the little girl mentioned above is for sure in the best place she can be, if that place is called Heaven, so be it.
I've been hoping to have my questions answered from Matthew or someone else with similar beliefs. I've never discussed religion with a Fundamentalist Christian before. I find Matthew's beliefs fascinating - Especially his inability to understand (not agree with - just to understand that OTHER'S believe this) the concept that you have to work to get to heaven - and as Craig said, "trust G-d"...
Win or lose in the planning board, I'd like to understand the Fundamentalist thought process more, since it's one that seems to be growing in the area.
Jay R wrote: "Win or lose in the planning board, I'd like to understand the Fundamentalist thought process more, since it's one that seems to be growing in the area."
I think that's a fine thought.
Unfortunatly I see a great similarity in thought procees between Islamc Fundamentalism and Extrememe Christiam Fundamentalists.
The greatest similarity being that you just cannot reason with them like a mainstream person. There is no grey area....only right and wrong-their way is the only way.
They are not interested in coversation, only preaching. They don't talk with you, they talk to you, and will only be satisfied if they can save you, so they themselves can feel redeemed.
I have tried conversing with "born agains" and my rule is, as long as the topic is anything but religious, you can enjoy their company, but the second the coversation turns to religion, the only brand is their own.
Thus the term "Holier than thou".
I prefer them not to get in my face.
All this religious stuff is fine for conversation...but I must state it is not why I against CC moving to Rockaway....those reasons have been stated over and over.
quote: Originally posted by: Pushed upon "All this religious stuff is fine for conversation...but I must state it is not why I against CC moving to Rockaway....those reasons have been stated over and over. "
I completely agree. Religion is NOT the issue at 140 Green Pond Road. Impact (environmental, traffic, etc..) is.
You are also correct in stating that you will be preached at instead of conversed with, and that the fundamentalist has a 'holier than thou' attitude. My conversation with Matthew started with that attitude - with his observation that 'non-believers' were not getting into heaven (as far as he could see). I tried conversing - I asked him many questions and answered many questions from him. Unfortunately, all I received from him was bible quotes, links to bible quotes, and a lie that he answered my questions (most were yes or no questions - and he never answered). I really would have loved to see his answers to my questions and continued our conversation from that point...Oh well...I guess it's not to be. I think he felt compelled to be silent because he knew his 'holier thanb though' answers would inflame most people.
"They are not interested in coversation, only preaching. They don't talk with you, they talk to you, and will only be satisfied if they can save you, so they themselves can feel redeemed."
Dear un-named poster,
I am sorry that some conversations you have had with Christians have bothered you.
I would like you to know that it is not a Christian belief that we "feel redeemed" if we can save you. Number one, "we" don't save anybody. Only God has that power. Number two, telling others about Gods gift doesn't make us "feel redeemed".
So then why tell anybody? Again, then cancer cure analogy is appropriate. If the entire world population had terminal cancer, and were dying in droves, and the cure was given to me, and I realized that this cure was real, what would you expect me to do? Keep the cure to myself (it's a personal decision) or tell others about it?
quote: Originally posted by: Matthew "Again, then cancer cure analogy is appropriate. If the entire world population had terminal cancer, and were dying in droves, and the cure was given to me, and I realized that this cure was real, what would you expect me to do? Keep the cure to myself (it's a personal decision) or tell others about it? Matthew"
difference is that a cure for cancer is scientifically PROVEN there is no room for different beliefs...or interpretations...
you have found and built your life around what YOU believe is salvation...
others have different views and feel strongly that they know how THEY will get into heaven based on their belief system...
no one is better than the other...just different...and that's one of the things that makes this such a wonderful country and world!!!
i'm happy you have found your salvation...but don't doubt that each of us has found our own (if we care to)...my beliefs are just as REAL as yours...
"So then why tell anybody? Again, then cancer cure analogy is appropriate. If the entire world population had terminal cancer, and were dying in droves, and the cure was given to me, and I realized that this cure was real, what would you expect me to do? Keep the cure to myself (it's a personal decision) or tell others about it?"
The difference is this:
It is of your opinion and hope that your are correct.
The reason that it is an opinion is that no-one can prove beyond doubt that your brand is the only right brand of religion.
Now I do have problems with certain fanatics of religion...here is an example:
One of my closest friends had cancer. Prior to being diagnosed with cancer he had an alocohol abuse problem. He cured his abuse problem and got wrapped up with the Jehovah Witnesses shortly after. So time goes by and he is now a born aain devout Witness. My friend comes down with cancer, needs a blood transfusion to save his life...the Jehovahs throw him out of their church in his hour of need. He later dies without the support of his "religous friends".
So... My point remains......You THINK your right. All your freinds gather round and RAH RAH RAH we're right! Does that make it right????
And do I have to have your idea preached to me????
Or...do you simply state...Hey I think I've got something here.....it works for me...wanna try it???
and leave it at that???
Quote your bible all you want...
I will however find peace in myself knowing that I have led a honorable life.
I have nothing to fear, or hide....I don't need someone to tell me ....now that you are a part of "US" you are going to be saved.
Perhaps you and your buddies need it....perhaps you need an addiciton of another flavor to satiate yourself.
Or perhaps you bought the used car the salesman was selling.
Your church is the one that fed you the line "tell others about it".
Without growth, the organizaion will not flourish, they need members to support (with $$$) the monoliths created.
I will repeat a question that I have raised before but not seen an answer from any Evangelical Fundamentalist Christians here on this bbs. I have asked this question many a time on other bbs's dedicated to Evangelical Fundamentalist Christianity.
Here is the compound question:
If Hitler suddenly had found Jesus as his Saviour in his heart of hearst, as the bullet was traversing the barrel of the gun that he held to his head right after he pulled the trigger, does he qualify to go to heaven?
Conversely,
If Anne Frank met her demise without ever accepting Jesus Christ as her saviour (a reasonable assumption, but not proovable), did she go to Hell.
Fundies do not like to answer that question, but when push really comes to shove and your corner them on it the answer is as follows:
Yes, Hitler could find a place in heaven in that circumstance and, Anne Frank would rot in hell.
This is very perverse thinking in my view
Now, I must clarify something about this. I have also asked what I consider to be a more moderate Christian group this same question, three Roman Catholic Priests in this area (Morris County). All three give me more or less the same answer which is as follows:
Hitler most likely would not find a place in heaven because of the way that he led his life, not just what concept he accepted at the end of his life. And Anne Frank is very likely in Heaven because of her own Jewish beliefs (that of heaven) and the fact that she was a good person who was essentially Martyred.
Comments anyone? I am particularly interested to hear what Irelands group thinks about the above concept.
Originally posted by: Craig Maier "If Hitler suddenly had found Jesus as his Saviour in his heart of hearst, as the bullet was traversing the barrel of the gun that he held to his head right after he pulled the trigger, does he qualify to go to heaven?
Craig, Since your question is "hypothetical" I will answer as to what I think "hypothetically" would happen in this case. Hitler, living a life of evil, even if offered the free gift of salvation, would not accept.
Now, can people who have done "bad things" receive the gift that God has offered and get into Heaven? Of course! Haven't all people done "bad things"?
The question that you and Jay have still failed to answer is "how bad" or "how good"?
Meaning, how bad do you have to be to be denied Heaven?
Let me ask you a more precise question Craig (not Hypothetical):
Did Hitler go to Heaven?
Conversely, If Anne Frank met her demise without ever accepting Jesus Christ as her saviour (a reasonable assumption, but not proovable), did she go to Hell.
If Anne Frank never received the Free Gift from God, then since she was not "perfect", she could not abide with God. Does this answer say that I think Anne Frank isn't in Heaven? Absolutlely not! As Craig has admitted, we can't know if the Gift was ever offered to her or if she accepted it.
Craig, if God Himself appeared in front of you and offered you instant passage into Heaven, how long would you question Him about Anne Frank and Hitler before you made your decision of whether to accept?
Sorry, Craig, but I'm not affiliated with CC in any way, shape or form.
But it is obvious that you REALLY want to hear answers from them (and people like them) about these issues. I think that's great. First I would suggest that you go in to CC in Montclair on a Sunday and approach some members or clergy and ask if they'd like to help you with some questions, I'll bet they'd be happy to talk with you. Or, if that's too far for you to drive, you could probably go up to GPBC and find the same "type" of Christians who would also be happy to talk to you.
matthew...as i posted in "where's jay" - this is my answer to your "how good" question...
i don't think i need to cure cancer to get into heaven...i can only do as good as I can...meaning...i'm not a scientist...so i won't be curing cancer...but i can do many other good things...and live an honorable life...
i live each day g-d has given me...and thank him for his generosity!!!
i love my family and friends...and thank g-d for giving them to me!!!
i treat his creatures with kindess...i thank g-d for bringing them into my life and showing beauty!!!
i respect my religion - although i don't always agree 100%...and i thank g-d for giving me free will
i believe in g-d, jesus and the holy spirit...and i thank g-d for the gifts that have been bestowed upon me...
i believe he suffered and died for me (well...not me alone)...i have faith that he is at my side...even at my lowest point...and thank g-d for the company and for never feeling alone...
i believe ALL he created has a purpose...without evil there can be no good...and i thank g-d for showing me mostly good and beautiful things thus far in my life...
i believe that when bad things have happened...and i have been scared, felt pain or lost someone/something i love...he has given me the strength to get thru it...and i thank g-d for caring for me even when i doubt him and question why these things happen...
i believe that we are tested (bad things happening, loss, moments of doubt)...and with each test...even if we fail...we get stronger...and we are brought closer to him...and i thank g-d for understanding that I AM human and I AM flawed and REALLY thank g-d for loving me anyway...
i believe when the day comes that my faith is ultimately tested g-d will see all of these things...and welcome me into heaven...and i will see ULTIMATE beauty...and will be flawed no more...
oh...and i follow his commandments:
I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day.
Honor thy Father and thy Mother.
Thou shalt not kill.
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Thou shalt not steal.
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife.
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's goods. and if i mess up in a moment of anger...i tell him (as if he does not know) and say i'm sorry (truly sorry...meaning it from the bottom of my heart)...and i thank him for forgiving my flaws...yet again...
g-d sees us as his children...he loves us unconditionally...he hates actions (murder, rape, etc)...not people...that's why he's g-d...and i'm human...but even g-d can't let everyone into heaven...b/c some never FEEL remorse for their bad actions...those are souls that are scarred and cannot be healed...if you don't ask for forgiveness you cannot be forgiven...
in MY OPINION: i don't think hitler went to heaven...and i think anne frank did...
quote: Originally posted by: Craig Maier "... I have also asked what I consider to be a more moderate Christian group this same question, three Roman Catholic Priests in this area (Morris County). All three give me more or less the same answer which is as follows: Hitler most likely would not find a place in heaven because of the way that he led his life, not just what concept he accepted at the end of his life. And Anne Frank is very likely in Heaven because of her own Jewish beliefs (that of heaven) and the fact that she was a good person who was essentially Martyred. Comments anyone? I am particularly interested to hear what Irelands group thinks about the above concept."
Couple points here:
First, instead of asking lay people who are evangelicals what they think, ask evangelical church leaders. It is unfair to ask a random churchgoer and compare that answer to Catholic Priests.
Second, the Priests seem to have given you a politically correct answer. "Most likely"? Nice wiggle room. Truth is, what do you think the answer would be if you asked a Catholic Priest about the following scenario: Hitler walks into a Catholic Church near then end of the War, takes confession - confesses all his sins upon humanity, begs for fogiveness, the Priest gives him his penance, he does it (please forgive me if I am missing part of the logistics here) and gets to the end. As he walks out of the Church, a "new man," he is shot and killed. Truth is the Priest would no doubt have to say that according to Catholic teachings he went to Heaven! No?