This is an open letter to other members of RT who happen to be Jewish as am I.
CC is a fundamentalist organization who believe that we will go to what they call "hell "if we do not follow their beliefs. This is not a basic Christian belief, but a fundamentalistic belief of such organizations such as cc.
If they (cc) succeed in coming to town, not only will they harrass us with their perverse thinking, but we will have to support them in their own endeavours against us with our own hard earned tax dollars. That sounds really sick and absolutely illegal to me. If the KKK claimed church status and decided to headquarter here in RT, would we have to support 'em? What do you think? What are we, a bunch of chopped liver?
I think that these folks really have crossed the lines with their beliefs at our expense. I want to explore other legal remedies regarding this "cult" and their beliefs and its effects on the Jewish (and non fundamentalist Christian) communities. I am not willing to support a group that condems us and our status as human beings as these folks do.
Are you?
Lets go after them on two fronts. Some beliefs are just not acceptable to a civilized society.
For example, if I advocated that all Italians are low-lives spiritually and intellectually and could never achieve human status as the basis of my religion, would that stand? (I use that example because I can get away with it cause I am married to a 100 % Italian woman that I have been married to for 32 years).
Ok Craig...I've siupported you several times...however, your loosing me....I think you're going off the deep end now....I am Jewish.
As much as I didain someone trying to sell me on their religion...I believe they have the right to do so. I also retain the right to slam the door on them.
Please do not make this a religious thing. I don't believe it'll work...and there is enough friction points on this.
We'll win...without this angle...it's a fight of another flavor, and for concrete reasons.
CC will loose one of two things: The battle for 140 Greenpond.... Or My families residence in this town...my wife and I serve the schools and sports programs very actively. They'll miss us, but I just won't stick around and watch my town go the way of belleville, bloomfield, montclair, and clifton etc.
I will of course, stick around long enough to make sure that every last one of elected officials lose their post in the next election,( regardless of their postion on this issue), because they failed this town, and if you don't perform your fired.
Let Ireland play the dirty race card all he wants.
As one of his idols said "I have a Dream"....he can have a million man or woman march on this town if he wants... but... I have a dream also...quiet enjoyment and coexistance...I don't want sympathy, or guilt...I'll win with my wits.
Having thought about it a little more, I guess the thought of up to 25,000 Fundamentalists congregating right down the block on which we live just scares the crap out of me.
If a person thinks that all sins are forgiven merely by accepting Jesus as ones saviour, where is the accountability for ones behaviour. What is the incentive to follow a moral code?
In our religion, we are taught the importance of living a good life according to G-ds law(s) (as you know there are 613 of them). We all know tha we can not follow them all for various reasons, but we do not preach that anyone is going to hell if we mess up now and then nor are we promised to go to heaven by simply believing that a 'saviour' will take care of all our mis-deeds.
Most Christian religions also do not accept the concept that only those that believe in Jesus as Saviour will go to heaven. But the Fundamentalists do.
So, ultimately, I guess I just can not help how I feel about this.
I understand you concerns, I understand your passion and I know you really do care about Rockaway Twp.
You are turning this into a matter based on religion when it is not. I do not agree with the teachings of CC. However they do not agree with the Temple I attend. I have learned that it is my duty to tend to my family, friends and self in the realm of religion. I will never attempt to "convert" someone to my beliefs.
In the Jewish faith it is the duty of a Rabbi to attempt to change the mind of a person attempting to convert. It it a long and difficult process, not a simple "repeat after me" verse. The concept of simple conversion is difficult for a Jew to understand, I do not think I ever will. However it is the right of anyone to follow and believe what they want. Our Constitution is a wonderful tool. We all have a right to free speech and freedom of religion. Yes, even the KKK has rights (the down side to our open society).
Craig, my neighbor, please direct your concern to the application, the land, the earth, the traffic and the facts. If you have issues about "church" taxability - take that up as a seperate "fight". You have some very valid points but I think your frustration maybe blurring your ability to communicate them well.
My response to this would be to ask which people or group is the most hateful?
If as a Christian one believes that if a person does not receive Jesus as Messiah that person will go to hell and that belief leads that Christian to be most compassionate and caring to each individual so that they may see the love of God in Jesus the Messiah through them how is this such a horrible concept?
Even more, compare it to a family member of Mr Maier who hypothetically comes to believe that Jesus is indeed the Messiah. Would this family member need to be concerned for his personal well being because of the potential of being excommunicated from his relatives and friends due to his belief?
Mr. Maier's religious viewpoint that none need fear hell is somehow now motivating him to oppose people who differ from him. They then need fear his attacks upon them and his retribution in this life.
So on the one hand you have people who believe in hell and that some will go there seeking to politely (though not all do) convince others to mend their ways by modeling love and grace that was freely given them(if it is a gift of God how can they think themselves better). And those who do not believe in hell need only fear that some of their neighbors think they may be going there but since they don't believe in it "no harm- no foul", right?
On the other hand, you have some adamantly opposed to the belief in hell and will persecute, oppose and attempt to hinder a growing church, a school for children, a proven change agent for good in a community.
So who is the dangerous one and the harmful one? Who is the most hateful here?
One sided, holier than thou views on either side of this question are the ones I see as the problem. From the sound of your post, you are one of these people.
I am a Christian. I have many friends of many faiths. I have entered into long discussions with them about religion. I find one item to ring true. None of us are correct about "the entire picture". There are many wonderful religions with many wonderful beliefs.
I was taught that Jesus is my savior. I was also taught that the Jews were the 'choosen' people and to God they were special. I have friends from other religions and many of them have the same basic views - there is one God and you are to act as he wishes (10 commandments for example) you are not to be hurtful to others and you are to protect the earth and all living things. We all agree on this. How one makes it to the "kingdom of God" that is viewed differently by different religiongs, who are YOU to judge others? Only God can judge such matters.
Stop attempting to divide a wonderful community. The efforts of the media are meant to sell newspapers and add to the 'value' of their "product" so that they may charge top dollar to the advertisers.... it is all about money - wake up!
...I'm surprised that we haven't had a response from Matthew by now about how your soul isn't getting into heaven either!
But I guess he knows he's won the game; gotten some publicity for Craig and stirred the pot.
Look, this guy Matthew came on this board and got everybody all worked up. If you look at some of the posts from 3 or 4 days ago you'll see why Craig was so ticked off.
I don't always agree with Craig, or for that matter, anyone--but I understand why he lost his mind; this guy Matthew was a real rabble rouser...
Many of us got caught up in it and fell prey to his game.
I guess to be "politically correct" I need to learn how to be totally tolerant of those people and groups who are totally intolerent towards me and my group.
BTW - Judaism is a totally inclusive religion. We believe that all souls go to heaven, not just Jewish ones. That means Christian, Muslim, Budahist, etc. All of them inclusively. Also, we do not believe that our beliefs are more G-dly than anyone elses.
Now, this is going to sound totally insane to some of you but - - -
my bigorty is that I am presently intolerant of intolerance towards those member of my own faith and other faiths that do not "give us some space" in G-ds kingdom. Sorry folks. CC is one of those organizations (as represented by its advocate Mathew).
I will try to work on that here on my end. I hope that they reconsider their position about us at the same time.
"We believe that all souls go to heaven, not just Jewish ones"
So by this statement one can infer that you not only believe that Hitler is in Heaven, but the 9/11 terrorists are as well. Correct?
You may chose to ignore this question or reply with insults. But failing to answer will simply reveal that you realize the foolishness of your statement since you can't stand behind it or defend it.
If you have any sense of human decency, you will cease your harassment. As I have stated before, I have no intention of engaging in any further discussions with you forever more. Amen.
quote: Originally posted by: Craig Maier "Mathew, If you have any sense of human decency, you will cease your harassment. As I have stated before, I have no intention of engaging in any further discussions with you forever more. Amen."
Craig,
You attempted to make a huge point by implying that my view of Christianity would say that if Hitler truly accepted Jesus into his heart just before the bullet entered his skull, then he would be granted entry into Heaven, did you not?
Weren't you trying to paint this view of Christianity in a negative light? How cruel a theology that would let a man like Hitler into Heaven so easily, you might say.
Yet you have confirmed by your repeated statements that you not only feel that Hitler could get into Heaven according to your view of Judaism, but that he is indeed there, haven't you?
And then, when this fact smacks you upside the face, you can only lob insults and run and hide?
Because your white flag is now fully raised in complete surrender within this "arena of ideas", I will cease with the piling on and focus my attention elsewhere.
Is that really your chosen name on this board? I would hope you might have a drop of creativity and you could come up with a consistent, meaningful name. But if you insist on associating yourself with me, I have no problem with that.
And I glad that you have learned to play with the pictures on this forum. Maybe next year, you can learn how to use WORDS to create a "SENTENCE".
quote: Originally posted by: But.... " He still stands by it 100%. This is who you're siding with. Just wanted to know where the majority of MC stands on this one."
Hey Matthew, trying to open thisd can of worms again. Back on the CC payroll I see.
quote: Originally posted by: Who Agrees? " "Some beliefs are just not acceptable to a civilized society. " I wonder if the majority of residents in Morris County agree with THIS statement? "
How about Nazi Fascism? How about Trotsky Leninism? How about Husein totalatianism? How about the Inferiority of the spirituality of the Jewish peoples?
quote: Originally posted by: Craig Maier "How about Nazi Fascism? How about Trotsky Leninism? How about Husein totalatianism? How about the Inferiority of the spirituality of the Jewish peoples? "
quote: Originally posted by: Karen "I think this thread has been milked for all it's worth. Time to let it die. Let doty have his last word and be done with it. No one's comparing anything with anything else; I believe craig was listing some unacceptable beliefs after someone said there was no such thing."
No comparing going on? Really?
Well let's see, Mr. Maier originally wrote that statement in reference to CC religious views. The point he was making was that "fundamentalist Christian" views were not acceptable to him (and should not be acceptable to anyone in a "civilized society").
So now he is just adding to that list, saying that these views are also in that "unacceptable" category: Nazi Fascism, Trotsky Leninism, Husein totalatianism. I think there might be a common theme with the three views listed. That theme is that those "philosophies" approve of mass murder to achieve their goals.
I guess that's not really comparing now, is it? You don't have to compare things when you consider them all to be in the same category. What you are really saying is that they're all very similar.
And I wonder what someone's reaction would be if a poster on this board were to put his views in the same category as Hitlers? If the poster said "Hey So-and-So, your views are unacceptable, just like Adolph Hitler's views were unacceptable". Would that bother So-and-So? How would he react?
Maybe Mr. Maier would like to clarify (or retract?) his statements?
Some may consider this a "dead issue" but Mr. Maier has never distanced himself from his remarks. On the contrary, he has firmly stood by them, haven't you Craig?