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Post Info TOPIC: My e-mail conversation with Marci Hamilton
Mark B.

Date:
My e-mail conversation with Marci Hamilton


I sent an email to Marci Hamiton, and she replied. I thought I would share it with you.
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Hello Ms. Hamilton,
I am hoping you have been made aware of the current struggle Rockaway Township is experiencing because of RLUIPA, and a mega-church that has a contract on a piece of land in our town.

The owner of the church (Rev. Ireland) has been pushing the limits of patience of many of the residents. He has a PR firm, and lawyers-we are at the planning board stages of our battle. Unfortunately, I and some other opponents of this church moving into our town have a fear that the town as we know it will have massive changes made to it, and can do nothing about it.

Our town has a population of approximately 22,000 residents. His churches website states "The congregation has enjoyed steady growth since our 1986 inception. We moved to our current Montclair location in 1994 with approximately 500 members. Today, we have a upwards of 5,000 active members." Very fast growth !!!! This from within 40,000 square feet of church and offices. His plans before our board presented 400,000 square feet. In a question and answer period, one resident asked "would you cap your growth...at 25,000 members?" His reply was "No".

We face the possibility of supporting a church that has the potential of out numbering our entire population!

I read your article... http://writ.news.findlaw.com/hamilton/20040129.html .

You addressed many of our concerns. What was omitted was the political elephant that entered the room of racial prejudice. Several times this issue has been raised like a trump card by Ireland. The facts are that Rockaway is predominately a white community, and Christ Church is a predominantly african-american group, and while Ireland has stated his dream of racial togetherness, ("Our message on promoting reconciliation and restoration among the races is very real to us. Acceptance of people is our calling and our passion."---Taken from his website) he is using that as a weapon to gain titilation points from the press and place undue pressure on the residents to defend themselves as not racially motivated in our fight. I believe this may also be a point of interest in your future editorials.

Ms. Hamilton....While I am not a spokesperson for anyone but myself, I can tell you that there are many people in the township that look at your as a crusader on our behalf, and someone who might be our silver bullet.

I am not familiar with protocol in your profession, but it would make us residents sleep a little better if at some point you hint to us of your monitoring our plight.

The opposors of this church have organized themselves due in part to a couple of families taking a leadership role, and those families are know as "VORT" --Voices of Rockaway Township.
Website is :http://www.voicesofrockawaytwp.org

And while many post topics wander off on tangents, absurd personal attacks and debates (like many unmoderated boards) we also have a bulletin board that many concerned residents monitor and discuss issue properly.
http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=17042&subForumID=17134&sparkKey=fca30fedad4e35cb038653d40fb3e53cb0

There is a bulletin board that is sponsored by the newspapers here that for many months was boorishly moderated in a one sided pro-church fashion...many people believe was commandeered by church employees or their PR firm. Many people complained of the bias to the editor of the website and was rebutted...until I found out who his boss was and posted her name and direct phone line. Recently that board has seen a reduction in posts, mainly due to the disappearance of a couple of the posters who supported the church (strange coincidence). We as a group felt that this bias could have a negative impact on the public opinion of those opposed to RLUIPA and specifically this the case I am discussing.
The website:
http://www.nj.com/forums/rockaway/

Another bulletin board supported by church has recently popped up that we are monitoring:
http://www.calvarymontclair.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9

Anyway....Ms. Hamilton....I do hope that it does not come to a major legal battle...we all just want this to go away....unfortunatly, we are all very scared that we may have a huge proselytizing religious amusement park monolith to deal with.

Please...let me/us know that you are aware of this, and what we as a community might do to help you, or ourselves??

It seems like we have been pinning our hopes on a gray area angle our hired lawyer is working....were the people who drew up our ordinances aware of the phenomena known as a "mega-church" when they allowed a "church" in a zone ordinance?, and is a mega-church indeed a church???

Very shaky grounds as far as one who has his family saving and future, home and town in jeopardy of being greatly affected by one selfish man...

Thank you for your time Ms. Hamilton.
Respectfully,
Mark B.
---

She did reply to my e-mail:

Dear Mr. B: Thanks very much for your email. I did speak with the planning board's attorney several weeks ago, and expect to join the Rockaway legal team at some point in the near future. Best regards, Marci Hamilton
----

I asked her if I could let my friends know of this, she replied:
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It was in the newspapers that we (Rockaway and I) were talking, so I see no need for you to keep it quiet. The field definitely needs to be leveled; using the race card is quite outrageous. Regards, MAH

------------------------------------------------

I thought by sharing this with all of you, it might put a smile on someones face, and maybe caue the "other side" a little angst.


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Karen

Date:

LOVE her!



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Maria

Date:

absolutely wonderful! thanks for sharing!!!

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Craig Maier

Date:

Thanks, Mark.  We all need some good news now and again given this nightmare.

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Biased letter to Marci

Date:

"a bulletin board that is sponsored by the newspapers here that for many months was boorishly moderated in a one sided pro-church fashion"


 


It was absolutely not "moderated in a one sided pro-church fashion".  I made MANY, MANY pro-church posts that were quickly deleted.  I just chose not to whine and cry about it.



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Mark B.

Date:

quote:
Originally posted by: Biased letter to Marci

""a bulletin board that is sponsored by the newspapers here that for many months was boorishly moderated in a one sided pro-church fashion"
 
It was absolutely not "moderated in a one sided pro-church fashion".  I made MANY, MANY pro-church posts that were quickly deleted.  I just chose not to whine and cry about it.
"


Oh really????
Well, you and who else????
How very convenient for you to finally pop your head up and choosing to start "whining" now....

Did you do anything proactive about it your deleted posts??? Did you save any of those posts???

If you didn't do anything back then, I am curious.... do think you have to right to "cry" about it now??

By the way....
Do you live in Rockaway?
Will you benefit finalcially in any way from CC moving here?
Are you employed presently, or wish to be employed by CC or one of their hired firms??
Can you prove it??

Why do you support CC moving here?


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Marci in the Daily Record

Date:

03/03/04
"Meanwhile, a law professor who has defended several municipalities in cases involving the 4-year-old, federal Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act said she had been approached by Rockaway Township officials but not formally retained.


"The township's attorneys have contacted me and we have been talking," said Marci Hamilton, a Benjamin N. Cardozo Law School professor who opposes RLUIPA and predicted in January that its constitutionality will someday be decided by the Supreme Court.


Hamilton did not name the attorneys, nor did she elaborate on their discussions. "


http://www.dailyrecord.com/news/articles/news2-church0302.htm


And again 03/09/04
http://www.dailyrecord.com/news/articles/news8-rockadvance.htm



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karen

Date:

"I made MANY, MANY pro-church posts that were quickly deleted..."

REALLY?! now THAT's a good one!



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answers

Date:


quote:




Originally posted by: Mark B.
" Oh really???? Well, you and who else???? How very convenient for you to finally pop your head up and choosing to start "whining" now.... Did you do anything proactive about it your deleted posts???


What's to do? They own the board, they can delete anything they want. It's not a free-speech issue on a private website.  No use moaning about it.


Did you save any of those posts??? If you didn't do anything back then, I am curious.... do think you have to right to "cry" about it now??


Not 'crying' now, just pointing out that the board ops weren't biased in my view.  I saw many of Todd's posts deleted (they were there, then they were gone) as well as mine.


By the way.... Do you live in Rockaway?


Yes.


 Will you benefit finalcially in any way from CC moving here?


Nope.


Are you employed presently, or wish to be employed by CC or one of their hired firms??


Nope.


 Can you prove it??


Yes, to the extent that the answers to the above questions are demonstrable.


And you forgot to ask if I am a member of CC.  I am not a member and have no intention of becoming a member if they move here.


 Why do you support CC moving here? "


It appears that they should be allowed to build on property that they plan on buying.  I haven't seen any laws demonstrating why they can't.  It's not an issue of me "wanting" them here. It's an issue of whether I think they have the right to be here.


 





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Lisa Salberg

Date:

Mark,


That was a great letter to Marci Hamilton.  As I stated in a previous post I am aware that when and if the time comes she is on "our team" - Rockaway Twp's team.


I think your letter was helpful in that it points out the "every mans" concerns, fears and point of view.  Your letter was clearly the opinion that I hear from 99% of those I speak with on this matter.


I think what is key to understanding RLUIPA is to know that it did not intend to give "privilage" to one group of people over other groups of people.  The errors in this law will be corrected by revision or retraction, of this I am sure.  Why am I sure, because that is the way our system works.  Many laws prior to this have  met with revision at the hands of the Supreme Court, that is how we correct our errors.


Thanks again!  See you all tonight!


Lisa



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Karen

Date:



The Dream Team lol!

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Craig Maier

Date:

Another lawyer to consider adding to our "Dream Team" would be the pre-eminent Henry Hill from Princeton, NJ.  His firm specializes in land use law and is almost always quoted in the newspapers on issues like this one.  He is definitely worth considering adding to our existing cadre of pro's in this area.

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CHA-CHING!

Date:

Marci Hamilton -


   $$$ CHA-CHING


 


Henry Hill -


   $$$ CHA-CHING


 


More Dream Team Lawyers -


   $$$ CHA-CHING


 


Better get out your wallets, RT residents, these people don't work for free.


You can all chip in some serious change just so a few residents in the Green Pond area aren't occasionally inconvenienced on Sunday mornings.



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Karen

Date:

Last I knew, until this situation is settled, Agilent continues to pay property tax on this land. I doubt these attorneys will cost us that much.

Even if they did, worth EVERY dime to save our quality of life.

"...You can all chip in some serious change just so a few residents in the Green Pond area aren't occasionally inconvenienced on Sunday mornings..."

People who live around St. Simeon's are "occasionally inconvenienced on Sunday mornings".

Christ Church would be a whole new way of life for us.

And mostintown don't want it. Thanks!


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So Funny

Date:

Just a quick math note here.  It is amusing how there are so many references to how legal fees are not an issue since (paraphrasing) "Agilent tax revenue can pay for that, so it has no impact."


The truth is that every dime used for legal fees (above the normal township legal expeditures) does subtract from other services, since Agilent's taxes are already used to fund other costs.  No inrease in revenue exists to offset the increased expenses.


Maybe everyone is ok with that, which is fine, but let's not delude ourselves into thinking the legal costs will have no impact.



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Karen

Date:

Agreed--of course Agilent's taxes are intended to be compensating for Agilent's impact.

Using that money for legal fees would take away from that compensation.

So...

I guess your solution is to save the legal fees by giving up the fight, allowing the church free rein.

That way we lose the tax revenue AND have significantly higher impact that the rest of us have to make up for.

You think it's so amusing, I guess you'll be laughing all the way to remedial math class.

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Craig Maier

Date:

 


Christ Church =


$$$$$$$$ CHA-CHING


X 1000


Whatever these Lawyers will cost us!


 


Go for the Dream Team!  Better than living admidst the Nightmare that is before us.


 



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Craig Maier

Date:

Agilents only Impact on RT is to have signed a contract with cc.  There is no other right now since nobody works there any more.  Use their tax money to fight their own deal.  That way the money is perfectly directed towards Agilents IMPACT on us.  I rather enjoy the irony of this situation.

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Problem

Date:

If RT wins in court, RT pays for it's lawyers.


If CC wins in court, RT pays for it's lawyers AND RT Pays for CC lawyers.


But maybe the newly form Craigmere church will cover the costs!



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No problem

Date:

quote:

Originally posted by: Problem

"If RT wins in court, RT pays for it's lawyers. If CC wins in court, RT pays for it's lawyers AND RT Pays for CC lawyers. But maybe the newly form Craigmere church will cover the costs!"


If RT gives up, RT pays for the CC impact forever and ever.  This includes not only the cost of CC infrastructure that all RT residents will be forced to pay, but also the lost tax revenues generated by 140 Green Pond Rd. that CC will never pay.


If RT wins in court, 140 Green Pond Rd will remain a taxable property - contributing to our township.


 



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Craig Maier

Date:

If cc wins in court, RT is going to have a whole bunch of "craigmere" churches to contend with.  My church (Maier Ministries) is going to insist on its tax exempt status and I will still demand that my roads remain cleared in the winter, etc.  Enjoy paying for this and thank you very much. 

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Lisa Salberg

Date:

The "tactics" used by some to attempt to alter the opinions of others are simply silly.  Do you honestly think this is about the fees incured to fight the application? With your attitude any developer willing to fight to develop environmentally sensitive land should be granted an approval - because they may cost us money to not approve the application based on FACTS.


Stick to the matters at hand.  The planning board will speak soon as to where this application is heading.  The process will continue and NO RESIDENT that I have spoken to is willing to roll over and play dead because it may cost the town a few dollars to fight for what is right.


See you all at the meeting tonight.


Lisa



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can't wait

Date:

quote:

Originally posted by: Craig Maier

"If cc wins in court, RT is going to have a whole bunch of "craigmere" churches to contend with.  My church (Maier Ministries) is going to insist on its tax exempt status and I will still demand that my roads remain cleared in the winter, etc.  Enjoy paying for this and thank you very much.  "

I can't wait to see this happen.

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