Greystone - The "All Opinions are Welcome, but Sorry no Instigators" Board

Date: Tue Apr 6 12:17 AM, 2004

Greystone

Date: Tue Apr 6 6:20 AM, 2004

First off Green Pond is not all commercial and industrial to Rt 80. Believe it or not there are houses right across the street from Agilent and next door to the complex.
Maybe we are trying to get rid of this mega project because our town can't handle it, is that wrong? Maybe neither can the area around Greystone. Maybe it's too big an undertaking for any town around here. Get the message? CC is too big a project!!

Date: Tue Apr 6 7:23 AM, 2004

Any C1 waters running through Greystone property?
140 GPR is surrounded by residential fool.
How about the Hercules property off rt 80 in Kenvill???

Mute points anywhay - we all know that a school will be built at this site...go home mr CC pr guy.

Date: Tue Apr 6 8:16 AM, 2004

Isn't Graystone right on Route 10? Maybe I'm thinking of another facility...

Date: Tue Apr 6 8:26 AM, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by: your cover is blown
" Again, unlike the Agilent site, which is all commercial & industrial all the way to Rt. 80.

OK blown cover - lie #1. Houses exist across the street from 140 Green Pond Rd. AND, when CC members start taking the 'back way' in to save time / traffic, they'll be going through VERY RESIDENTIAL BACKROADS.

So I guess if you're all in favor of CC locating at Greystone

Lie #2 from blown cover guy - we don't care where it goes. Once Rockaway Township is ruled out, we're fine if you stay in Montclair, go to Greystate, Hercules, Mount Olive, or the moon. It's really none of our concern. Our concern is keeping a project that is too big out of our town.

, then you've just blown your cover.

Not a lie...Not sure what it is oh blown one. Please explain what the he** you're talking about? What 'cover' is blown? Are we talking Rocky & Bullwinkle spy v spy or something? Who is 'under cover'?

By supporting this idea, you have totally exposed yourselves.

Again oh blown one, you're talking like an idiot. Exposed ourselves? I don't see anyone running around with their overcoats opened revealing what nature gave? Where the he** are you coming from? What's been 'exposed'.

You don't want to be inconvenienced by a large church in your neighborhood

No - we don't. And it's much more than an inconvenience...When an ambulance is stuck in that traffic it could be life or death. When our well water is polluted, it is our health. Basically, this is OUR town and we have the right to not have a project with the scope of CC in a residential (YES - residential - look across the street and at Meridan Rd) area.

but would be very happy to send it to another neighborhood far less equipped to handle it, so long as it doesn’t effect you.

Again - you're free to go wherever you want. Maybe you should give some thought to the fact that your project is simply to big for ANY area other than a large industrial complex (which Green Pond Rd is NOT).

Date: Tue Apr 6 8:47 AM, 2004

"If you really believe that the Greystone site would be a good fit for CC, then you've no choice but to realize that the Agilent site would be far better."

Lisa, in a previous post, claims to think that Greystone would be a good location for CC.

The question remains: Does she really think this? And do the rest of the Opposers think this?

Date: Tue Apr 6 8:52 AM, 2004

Here's what I think: It's better than a mile away from my house, on my only path to civilization.

Date: Tue Apr 6 8:57 AM, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Think This?
"Here's what I think: It's better than a mile away from my house, on my only path to civilization."

So it's not about any of the so called facts you've mentioned...your cover is indeed blown

Date: Tue Apr 6 9:00 AM, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Question remains
""If you really believe that the Greystone site would be a good fit for CC, then you've no choice but to realize that the Agilent site would be far better." Lisa, in a previous post, claims to think that Greystone would be a good location for CC. The question remains: Does she really think this? And do the rest of the Opposers think this? "

The only REAL QUESTION of concern to residents of Rockaway Township is in relation to the application of CC to purchase 140 Green Pond Rd.

Is this the latest spin from the CC spin machine? Try to confuse the issue by comparing 140 Green Pond Rd to other sites mentioned on this board?

Here's the facts:

Christ Church is too big for Green Pond Road

When your application is denied due to the incredible negative impact a project of this size would have on a rural section of our township (yes - it is rural - look around anywhere north or east of the site), we do NOT CARE where you go next.

Some people have suggested other locations. Obviously, any other location found by CC would have to go to another planning board in another town. We wish you luck. Frankly, I can't imagine any town wanting the traffic and pollution (from all those cars) you will bring. You're only hope is to find some place that does not have 'conditional' zoning, but is zoned for the mega-campus you desire

Date: Tue Apr 6 9:03 AM, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Ted Doty
"So it's not about any of the so called facts you've mentioned...your cover is indeed blown"

How can you say 'cover is blown' tED. Obviously, you must be the 'blown cover' poster.

Of course he doesn't want it near his house. He does not want it the BECAUSE OF THE FACTS. You didn't even read his statement - you just went into your usual, anti-everyone mode. He doesn't want it there because he'll be STUCK IN HIS OWN HOUSE because of the traffic that thousands of cars will generate.

tED - I'll bet when you talk to yourself, you begin to argue, and then lose the argument.

Date: Tue Apr 6 9:11 AM, 2004

I guess we should just say "not here" and stop suggesting other potential locations.

Maybe Graystone is too "yucky" to consider (that was a mental hospital, right?). Bad karma maybe...although they're obviously not concerned with creating bad karma.

I'm sure they know about all the available locations anyway--after all, they've been searching for a new location for it seems like I recall, something like 7 years?

(if that's true, how many members did the church have 7 years ago?)

Anyway, I guess it only does us a disservice to try to be nice and offer suggestions.

So...from my perspective: NOT HERE. DOESN'T FIT.

Go somewhere else. I don't care where.

Date: Tue Apr 6 9:14 AM, 2004

"Houses exist across the street "

It is still in an industrial zone. And heading south on GP Rd. is all industrial. That's the fact. There are no industrial areas anywhere near Greystone.

"we don't care where it goes."

Lisa and the nice old Gentleman that stopped by her house want to take a partition to CC suggesting they locate at Greystone. That sounds like "caring" where it goes to me.

"What 'cover' is blown?"

The "cover" (or ruse) of saying CC is "too big" for the Agilent site, but not thinking it is too big for Greystone. If it isn't 'too big" for Greystone, it surely isn't too big for 140 GP Rd.

"What's been 'exposed'"

The hypocrisy and NIMBYism of those who are in favor of sending CC to Greystone.

"this is OUR town and we have the right to not have a project with the scope of CC in a residential (YES - residential - look across the street and at Meridan Rd) area."

Stating again, the Agilent area is far less a "residential" area than Greystone. There is no comparison.

"project is simply to big for ANY area other than a large industrial complex (which Green Pond Rd is NOT)."

To agree with you, Lisa would have to think that the Greystone area is a "large industrial complex". Because she thinks CC would be a good fit for that location. Read her post.

There's no way to deny that 100 plus acres is not "large". It is. And it is in a "Light Industrial Zone". For anyone in RT to expect that the owner of a 100 acre parcel of land will only have a small operation there is naive. The zoning code would allow a corporation far more expansion on the Agilent site than is currently there. Agilent simply hadn't taken advantage of that option before they pulled out. But another company coming in could have. And the proposal by CC doesn't exceed the limits of what's allowed there by the zoning laws.

BTW, the original poster, and the poster of the above, is not Ted.

Date: Tue Apr 6 9:18 AM, 2004

Isn't Graystone right on Route 10?

How many houses are within a 1/4 mile of Graystone?

Date: Tue Apr 6 9:27 AM, 2004

regarding Greystone:

"it appears to be a truely realistic option"

Why would Lisa say that if she really didn't believe it? And in her original post, not one of the Opposers mentioned that CC would be "too big" for the Greystone area. They just started arguing with Ted and took the thread into a pointless, name calling tangent.

Now that it has been pointed out that Agilent is better suited for CC then Greystone, they all want to forget about the whole "Greystone" idea after all.

Maybe that nice old man wasn't so nice after all.

Or maybe the leader of the Opposers just made a big mistake.

She exposed herself.

Lisa, your NIMBY is showing.

Date: Tue Apr 6 9:51 AM, 2004

How about building in Newark?? It has hundreds of acres available essentially for free. The access is extremely high. The town streets are built in a matrix format. Lastly, it is proximal to Church members homes. The project could probably be built to a million square feet at half the cost of the RT proposal with no displacement of existing members from the Montclair facility.

Date: Tue Apr 6 10:52 AM, 2004

I agree with Craig. Urban renewal is the next construction boom that NJ is entering. Probably the one good thing McGreevey is fostering. I am sure thier are plenty of vacant industrial sites within proximity to major highways in Newark, Elizabeth, Patterson, etc.

A side note to our friends at CC. You should talk to your church leaders to stop focusing their energy on 140 Green Pond Road and shift it to another prospect. One of 2 things will happen in RT. A new school through eminent domain, or rejection by the planning board. Ask them how much they have spent on this project and when will it end. Tell them to stop wasting your money, cut their losses and move on.

The dream of a Megachurch in RT, is just that...a dream...it's time to wake up.

Date: Tue Apr 6 10:55 AM, 2004

Some have suggested we look at "alternatives". One knocked on my door and I thought I would share it with you. FYI others have called and suggested other places such as Mt. Olive - BASF and Hercules-Kenvil.

These are OPTIONS. Some of which have potential to help Christ Church obtain its goals.

We all know that the overwhelming majority of residents in Rockaway Twp have good reason for opposing the 140 GP Rd. location (ENVIRONMENT, TRAFFIC, INFRASTRUCTURE, and Taxes). If we see alternatives should we NOT help Christ Church and let them know what we have found? What is the application is turned down? Would they not want to find alternative locations to build the campus they dream of?

Some of you who are in support of the application are bent on finding fault with anything done by those who oppose the plan. THERE IS NOT A HIDDEN AGENDA, the plan is too large for 140 GP Rd.

Interestingly - did anyone notice in the testimony from the planner for Christ Church that he mentioned ...'it is not like they are building new homes in the area around 140 Green Pond Rd'... have you all noticed the 2 new houses on Green Pond rd and the new ones on Meridian? It would have been nice if he looked at the area prior to testimony.

Lisa

Date: Tue Apr 6 11:02 AM, 2004

"Houses exist across the street "

It is still in an industrial zone. And heading south on GP Rd. is all industrial. That's the fact. There are no industrial areas anywhere near Greystone.

Obviously, this is a Russ Jones post. Hey Russ - we all read your little letter to the editor - it's not zoned 'conditional' as that zone does not exist. It's not zoned industrial either. Get it right. It's zoned Office / Research...You want industrial, go to an industrial park where there IS infrastructure to bring in all those cars.

"we don't care where it goes."

Lisa and the nice old Gentleman that stopped by her house want to take a partition to CC suggesting they locate at Greystone. That sounds like "caring" where it goes to me.

Wrong again Russ - We really do not care where it goes. People are offering suggestions. Fact is, we don't want it here. Feel free to go anywhere else. Of course, nobody will want you, because nobody wants the mess of thousands of cars cloggin their roads.

"What 'cover' is blown?"

The "cover" (or ruse) of saying CC is "too big" for the Agilent site, but not thinking it is too big for Greystone. If it isn't 'too big" for Greystone, it surely isn't too big for 140 GP Rd.

Greystone was just something people threw out - just like Hercules - just like the Mt. Olive area. People are free to throw out their ideas. Get real...Lisa and all others know that wherever CC goes, they'll probably face another lengthy planning board hearing. Calling it a 'cover' to suggest other areas makes you look like a fool.

"What's been 'exposed'"

The hypocrisy and NIMBYism of those who are in favor of sending CC to Greystone.

You want hypocrisy - let's look at your Rev. Ireland. Making racist comments on TV but of course, there's no race card. Rev. Ireland having advanced degrees in planning, but not having any plans for the future. Call it NIMBYISM if you want, but the fact is the church is too big for this area. Of course nobody wants it in their backyard. I wouldn't want a garbage dump or a prison going in there either - I suppose that's NIBMYism too?

"this is OUR town and we have the right to not have a project with the scope of CC in a residential (YES - residential - look across the street and at Meridan Rd) area."

Stating again, the Agilent area is far less a "residential" area than Greystone. There is no comparison.

OK - How about Hercules then. Go move there. Tell me Russ - has VORT presented detailed plans to anyone with traffic studies for Greystone? No - this is a free speech board. People are speaking freely - and throwing out their thoughts. There's no 'secret plan' to move CC to Greystone.

"project is simply to big for ANY area other than a large industrial complex (which Green Pond Rd is NOT)."

To agree with you, Lisa would have to think that the Greystone area is a "large industrial complex". Because she thinks CC would be a good fit for that location. Read her post.

Again, Mr. Jones...Who cares. Greystone was just a thought...Just like all the other sites mentioned.

There's no way to deny that 100 plus acres is not "large".

There's no way to deny that there are C-1 class streams running through those acres. There's no way to deny that there are wetlands on those acres. There's no way to deny that people of this town pull their water supplies from the waters that run through those acres. There's no way to deny that Green Pond Rd is one lane in each direction. There's no way to deny that the people who live north of 140 Green Pond Rd have no other route to get to the highway without making major detours up to route 23. There's no way to deny that the back way to 140 Green Pond Rd goes through BACKROADS - winding country roads.

And it is in a "Light Industrial Zone".

Lie again - it's zoned for office / research.

For anyone in RT to expect that the owner of a 100 acre parcel of land will only have a small operation there is naive.

140 Green Pond Rd is already developed. Nobody in Rockaway Township would have a problem with someone coming in and using the existing space with the existing parking. Russ - feel free to tell your friends at CC to offer a smaller proposal that fits the current footprint.

The zoning code would allow a corporation far more expansion on the Agilent site than is currently there.

The zoning code would NEVER allow over 1000 new parking spaces and 200000 square feet of new buildings to be erected - NEVER

Agilent simply hadn't taken advantage of that option before they pulled out. But another company coming in could have.

Not without planning board approval.

And the proposal by CC doesn't exceed the limits of what's allowed there by the zoning laws.

Don't put that cart before the horse Russ. That's for the planning board to decide.

BTW, the original poster, and the poster of the above, is not Ted.

Date: Tue Apr 6 11:52 AM, 2004

So it seems that you Opposers have others out here who will reveal your ridiculuous positions that will expose where you are really coming from.

Many arguments have been made here by the Opposers. But let's get back to the original point.

Lisa suggested that CC could move to the former Greystone site. Since Lisa is a longtime resident in Morris county, can we assume that she's actually driven by that area? So she knows what kind of area it is. And it only takes a moment on Mapquest to see what kind of access there is.

So these are the facts: Greystone is much less accessible and far more residential than Agilent. Yet Lisa chose to proclaim that she felt that it was a good idea for CC to go there. And here is the main point that you all seem to be missing: If it fits in Greystone, it fits in Agilent SO much better.

And speaking of traffic studies, where is VORT's traffic study? You know, the one we all heard so much about for months? The traffic study that would prove the "Traffic Nightmare"? The study that would prove that the Arbitron study was skewed in favor of CC?

You can rant and rave all you want. But as has been said so many times before, Ranting and raving shouldn't sway a planning board, and it won't sway the judges that will apparently end up deciding this issue.

And for the record: not Ted, not Todd, not Russ, not PR firm, not paid, not affiliated with CC.
It's an old tactic: When you can't refute the message, try to discredit the messenger.

Date: Tue Apr 6 12:16 PM, 2004

So it seems that you Opposers have others out here who will reveal your ridiculuous positions that will expose where you are really coming from.

Many arguments have been made here by the Opposers. But let's get back to the original point.

Please do - the original point that we have been discussing for many months is Christ Church's application to purchase 140 Green Pond Road and greatly expand the existing parking and bulding space.

Lisa suggested that CC could move to the former Greystone site. Since Lisa is a longtime resident in Morris county, can we assume that she's actually driven by that area? So she knows what kind of area it is. And it only takes a moment on Mapquest to see what kind of access there is.

There you go again. Typical CC argument - let's make the major point something other than CC's application. You don't want to argue the merits of the application (1000+ new parking places and unbounded, unpredicted future growth), so you like to bring up other issues such as "someone said move to Greystone" or "someone said Rockaway is racist". Greystone is not the issue. 140 Green Pond Rd is the issue. Christ Church is free to look at other locations. People in Rockaway are free to mention other locations. Nobody (with the possible exception of Christ Church) has studied other locations.

So these are the facts: Greystone is much less accessible and far more residential than Agilent.

Fact - Christ Church is too big for 140 Green Pond Rd. Maybe it's too big for Greystone too, and maybe not. The point is moot unless Christ Church decides to persue purchasing Greystone. Again, as usual, CC supporters try to obfuscate the true issue of 140 Green Pond Rd with rediculous 'arguments' about Greystone.

Yet Lisa chose to proclaim that she felt that it was a good idea for CC to go there.

Good laugh on that one. Lisa made a proclamation! Wow. Let's leave the proclamations to the mayor - that's part of his job. Lisa merely was in discussions of alternate locations. Many have been mentioned - Greystone, Hercules, Mt. Olive. We do not accept your new 'spin' that the major issue is now LISA SAYS MOVE TO GREYSTONE WHICH IS LESS ACCESSIBLE THAN 140 GREEN POND THEREFORE 140 GREEN POND MUST BE A GOOD FIT...That's laughable.

And speaking of traffic studies, where is VORT's traffic study?

Any studies that VORT has had done will be presented in the proper forum (planning board).

You know, the one we all heard so much about for months? The traffic study that would prove the "Traffic Nightmare"? The study that would prove that the Arbitron study was skewed in favor of CC?

Again, Any studies that VORT has had done will be presented in the proper forum (planning board).

You can rant and rave all you want.

Thank you - I guess we're equal there

But as has been said so many times before, Ranting and raving shouldn't sway a planning board, and it won't sway the judges that will apparently end up deciding this issue.

So then why do you rant and rave on this board? If you are so confident CC will win, why bother arguing here - other than for the fact is CC is losing and is now trying to sway public opinion.

And for the record: not Ted, not Todd, not Russ, not PR firm, not paid, not affiliated with CC.

OK then, for the record - Rockaway Township resident? Do you live off Green Pond or Meridan Roads?

It's an old tactic: When you can't refute the message, try to discredit the messenger.

So you agree that Russ and Ted are both 'discredited messengers', I guess. So far, they're the only CC supporters to sign their names to their posts.

Date: Tue Apr 6 12:25 PM, 2004

It's an old tactic: When you can't refute the message, try to discredit the messenger.

You're correct - that's why we see so much effort to discredit the members of VORT. How many personal attacks have we seen against Lisa, Adam, Kim, and John from CC supporters?

Luckily for Rockaway Township, the personal attacks against them will not work. They have the personal fortitude to stand up to the smear campaign being run against them, and they have the support of the residents of Rockaway Township.

It's a shame though, that people who purport to be religious would stoop so low as to make these attacks alongs with claims of racism.

I guess for some CC supporters, it's all about power and money and a lost vision of what faith really is about.

Date: Tue Apr 6 1:11 PM, 2004

Usually it is best to just read these boards for the laugh factor, but the funniest part is the "Dream" of a bucolic sub-suburban Rockaway, so a written contribution must be made.

Wake up to reality, the mall and Damon's are just to start of development, whether it be industrial or just endless McMansions on 1/4 acre lots. Get used to it. CC is actually the least impact RT will likely see.

Oh yeah, a cliff notes version on the "merits" (which posters seem to always want CC supporters to "discuss" but who refuse to actually have a civil discussion on them):

1. The application complies with all environmental laws, so stop saying there will be environmental impact.

2. The only traffic analysis made public states that the church will not overburden the roads. (and this is before the road improvements that will surely come regardless of whether CC moves into the Agilent site)

3. There is no 3! What is built on, or done on, the site once CC is there is none of our concern -- no traffic problem + no environmental problem = no problem.

Oh yeah - growth stats, the Rev. said no estimate of pace, but no cap even at 25,000. Still doesn't matter, as more services will fit the growth in, and since there is not a traffic problem to start there won't be later (particularly with the improved roads that all the businesses and residents on GPR will get).

Date: Tue Apr 6 1:26 PM, 2004

So Funny, Here is a repost from above. Take this to your leaders.

A side note to our friends at CC. You should talk to your church leaders to stop focusing their energy on 140 Green Pond Road and shift it to another prospect. One of 2 things will happen in RT. A new school through eminent domain, or rejection by the planning board. Ask them how much they have spent on this project and when will it end. Tell them to stop wasting your money, cut their losses and move on.

The dream of a Megachurch in RT, is just that...a dream...it's time to wake up.

Date: Tue Apr 6 1:28 PM, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: So Funny
"Usually it is best to just read these boards for the laugh factor, but the funniest part is the "Dream" of a bucolic sub-suburban Rockaway, so a written contribution must be made."

if we aren't claiming to be pastoral...so stick your SAT word...

we claim to have a peaceful, quite, tight-knit community that has a sense of country charm...not flocks of sheep and cattle grazing in our backyards...

and if ireland himself didn't think we had some country feel in our town...he wouldn't have written about him and his parishoners spending their weekends in the country...

Date: Tue Apr 6 1:36 PM, 2004

To Not Russ Either,

If you are none of the guys that you mentioned, you are definitely in their club - - - a club of people who hate this town or love to play Russian Roulette with Six rounds in the chambers. If that metaphor is too hard for you to understand, it means that you would gladly risk turining RT into an environmental nightmare just because you have some sort of a Liberal hardon agenda. I personally doubt that you even live in this town else you would supply your f-u=c=king name here.

Date: Tue Apr 6 1:45 PM, 2004

It's over, and CC knows it. A school will be built at 140 GPR and that is a fact. Spin away tED,tODD, jERK oFF rUSS, CC sPINGUY.

I look foward to the day our kids are laughing and playing at the new school, and we are engrossed in deep debate here on this forum about how much hopps to add to a favorite wort mix.

Date: Tue Apr 6 2:09 PM, 2004

"tight-knit community that has a sense of country charm."

A sense of country charm, along with what will shortly be the 2nd biggest mall in NJ!!

Date: Tue Apr 6 2:12 PM, 2004

"I personally doubt that you even live in this town else you would supply your f-u=c=king name here."

Craig, you just had another vowel-movement on the board.

It would be helpful if you would just dump that stuff in the toilet where it belongs.

By the way, hows that new screen-saver working out? Are you still getting satisfaction from it?

Date: Tue Apr 6 2:16 PM, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: 2nd biggest mall
""tight-knit community that has a sense of country charm." A sense of country charm, along with what will shortly be the 2nd biggest mall in NJ!!"

So build the Church inside the Mall - where there IS infrastructure to support roadways (and much much more expensive real estate - oops - out of your price range).

Maybe if you'd pay a visit to Rockaway, you'd notice that the mall and Green Pond Rd are very different areas. Go back to the NY Times article from last summer and Rockaway Township is called 'semi-rural' - not urban, not suburban, but semi-rural.

There are many winding country roads leading to 140 Green Pond Road. It's the only way out of town (or to the hospital if needed) for many Rockaway Township residents.

Date: Tue Apr 6 2:19 PM, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: 2nd biggest mall
""tight-knit community that has a sense of country charm." A sense of country charm, along with what will shortly be the 2nd biggest mall in NJ!!"

then why would ireland be telling his flock about spending their weekends at their new campus in the country??? wow...he better start telling the truth to his parishoners!!!

we need commerce and to shop...the town (in vast majority) (take ride down main street) although there are stores...is quaint...