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Hey guys, since we're going to be keeping track of the posts that are deleted so they can be reported to the bosses, let's start doing this.

Whenever you see a particularly interesting post (of course not inappropriate or dangerous or privacy-invading), copy the whole post and we'll store them here.

Include the post number and the post-er's name, just copy from top to bottom. Hopefully that'll be enough info for them at management.

There's a moderator that's dirty out there...and if we can't find todddavid, we'll get his buddy! arrr-arrr...


I'll start it off...

1484.5. In my opinion
by RockRes30yrs, 2/23/04 19:03 ET
Re: What I don't understand by jasper1952, 2/23/04

they saw a large piece of land available in a rural town that they felt they could bully their way into. They reviewed our ordinances and found no true definition of what a church is and saw that our zoning permitted it as a conditional use in any zone. They thought they could slip right in without most of the RT residents even finding out. Thank God for VORT for opening everyones eyes to what was going on.
(In response to:)
1484. What I don't understand
by jasper1952, 2/23/04 14:30 ET

Why does Christ Church want to buy property for $14,000,000 (not counting what the renovations would cost) that only half of which can be used and it's in a place where less than 1/4 of their congregation resides? Wouldn't it be better to buy something that you would get more bang for your buck, have mass transit, and be more centrally located for your congregation?



This one was deleted for no reason:

1465. new msg board
by RockTwpRes, 2/21/04 19:09 ET
It seems that many messages on this board are being deleted. There is another free message board that hopefully, much of the conversation can migrate to, where the posts will not be deleted.

Please check out



Another deleted post (glad I saved some of them)...Anyone showing the actual deleted posts to - to prove that something funny has been going on?


1442.1.2.1. what false info?
by RockTwpRes, 2/21/04 8:57 ET
Re: So much false info by todddavid, 2/21/04
> Less then 3 percent of the town has gone to any meeting.This is just way to personel that is why so many have stayed away.

And your point is? How many people come to a planning board meeting about any other issue. The fact remains that more people attended the last two planning board meetings than any other planning board meetings in the history of Rockaway Township (probably more attended each of the last 2 meetings than usually attend planning board meetings in an entire year).

> The law is for a public hearing but if the turn out keeps being so small it is a waste of money to pay for a large place when more then half of it was empty.

If fewer people turn out, the planning board will move the meeting - they're not dumb. However, even half filled, there were way more people in the high school auditorium than could fit in the muni building.

>As far as me I am not angry so dont worry I have no clue what post you are talking abot

All nicely deleted, thank you very much.

> I know other people try to use names close to mine to post but that just shows they fear the facts.

Who? I've seen Toddclone - but that is someone poking fun at you, not trying to railroad your name. What name has been used trying to look like you? None that I have seen.

>I would find the personal fight interesting if it was not with taxpayer money. If the law is broken and we end up in court they wont care how much you like or dont like the church they will just go over the legal issue.

Todd - again - who is breaking the law? Which law is being broken? There is a legal process. It is being followed. Period.

> Fact is CC has already said they will work with all forms of govt to fully comply with all state and fed regs. If they stray the state will step in so why are you worried.

What, me worried? I'm not worried. I'm sure the law is on my side. I have no worries in this that in the end, the residents of RT will have a LEGAL victory.

>I have to wonder if the papers are right and some people still are just upset because there is a new group wanting to move here

Sounds like you've been reading the editorials of a few instead of the opinion of the newspaper (again).

>if that is it then that is understandable but you have to get use to it because this happens all the time

I guess you are the expert - since you speak to all the people all the time.




Lisa's deleted post.  Again - I hope someone shows these to someone in authority at  They clearly meet their guidelines for good posts:


1467. Free speech?
by lisarockaway, 2/22/04 9:41 ET
Hello to all,

Yesterday I had posted about 10 different items. I began with the date and time of Mondays meeting and encouraged ALL parties to attend (pro and con). There were several posts from others about the upcoming meeting and issues surrounding the application for re-development of 140 Green Pond Road. All were deleted. There is a person on this board who attempts to have the 'final' word on all items and I suspect takes actions to delete the postings of others to place himself in greater view. Based on this it is clear that any conversation among neighbors about the application for the re-development of 140 Green Pond Rd. can not take place on this message board.

It is sad that people must censor the input of others in an attempt to have there opinions appear as fact. I have encouraged all interested parties to do there own research, learn the facts, do your homework, understand the law and be part of the process.

I hope to see you all on Monday Night.

Thank you,




Last one I saved...Another 'legit' post - this one from Kim.


by RTWPVoice, 2/23/04 10:39 ET
I would like to remind everyone to come to the PLANNING BOARD MEETING this evening to hear the CC application for the property known as 140 GREENPOND RD. The meeting will be held at Morris Knolls High School at 8 pm/

All concerned Rockaway Township residents SHOULD attend. Questioning of Mr Ireland will continue with a possibilty of a planning expert to begin his tesimony tonight.



Kim Jenkins



Just for giggles--I want to store 5reasons' first and only somewhat rational post. Just to remind myself that he does have the capability of logical thought.

He thinks the people on Franklin have it bad, good thing he didn't make a wrong turn off green pond! lol does that area compare to Newark? Somehow it doesn't seem comparable.

1486. My Analysis
by Mister5Rsns, 2/23/04 22:49 ET

First and foremost it was pretty obvious to ALL that I, Mr. 5 Reasons, (gray pinstripe suit) was the best looking guy in the room - BY FAR. It is difficult to be as good looking as I am - and let it be known, that no matter how ugly you are, I won’t (and don’t) hold it against you.

Now, on to the meeting….

I first want to complement the chair, as I think he does a great job at handling the meeting. He has to give the residents leeway to vent while asking their questions, but also has to cut off the most absurd questions. I thought he did a good job (I left at the break) in a thankless situation. So kudos to that guy….

I thought the questions ranged from very good to outrageouslypoor. The one loud guy that was obnoxious with all of his questions should have been showed the door. He couldn’t maintain his anger in the midst of his tirade. What’s sad is that that guy actually got a good deal of applause. Are you kidding me? For being uncivil?

A couple of other residents made their points in a civil tone. I was especially impressed with the style and class of Ms. Koch (is that her name? - I could have it wrong). Anyway, she made her points, asked her questions and that’s democracy at its best.

Although it is NOT APPLICABLE TO THE APPLICATION, I thought the whole line of questioning regarding “discrimination” in hiring was troubling (as a church supporter). I really don’t understand why you have to be a Christian to wipe a toilet. To me, that’s just stupid and it goes against MY religious beliefs. (Then again, I haven’t been a practicing Catholic in 20 years - I’m not even sure I have any religious beliefs left). Still, that’s troublesome, although it is NOT relevant to the application. My only problem is that if he ever applies for a federal grant (Bush’s faith-based initiatives) he’ll have to revise his policies in a very quick way. Simply put, that kind of stance can come back to bite you in the you know where….

Two other things I really didn’t like from Rev. Ireland. First, he said he didn’t know what his security staff was on a Sunday. I’m not sure I buy that. On a typical Sunday (again, on the three sessions I’ve been to), there are about 5 to 7 “security.” But in reality, they really aren’t security as you would conceptualize them; they’re more like ushers with radios. Their primary purpose would be to get people in and out of the building so that CC wasn’t in violation of the fire code. Still, I suspect he obfuscated on the question because the word “security” within the context in which it was asked was a somewhat loaded question with racial overtones.

The other thing he should have been up front with was how many he anticipated coming to Rockaway. Don’t fool yourself - you aren’t 45 minutes from “Essex County.” And, just in case you haven’t looked around Morris County lately, the notion that they are going to be coming from Essex at all is a dubious proposition (especially over the next decade). My guess is that he has the data and knows it. If I had to guess, I would suspect that over 90% would make the journey. Of course, his observation is probably correct - on inclement weather days attendance would probably be way off.

Finally, a wet noodle goes out to all of the speakers that kept re-asking the attendance projections and for the guy that ONCE AGAIN tried that stupid “it’s not a church” argument.

Quick answer: The average per classroom in the nation IS NOT 25. What are we, China? I believe the national average of students per class is about 17 or so. In New Jersey, K-8 is about 16 (I’ll double check that stat.)

Final note: I took a wrong turn on Franklin and YIKES…..ran into more typical flotsam. How do you people live like that? We got get some help out here to you soon.



A couple of my less diplomatic posts, although I don't find them inappropriate, I'm sure someone will make them go byebye.

1489.2.1.1. Either...
by mrsstark2, 2/24/04 12:48 ET
Re: did anyone notice? by cinndoug, 2/24/04

...not from the township OR one of the 7 people who actually makes the trip to Montclair and braves the traffic over there to go to church.

I guess it's not such a bad deal for those folks, sit in traffic here or drive 45 minutes to sit in traffic over there...


1489.2.2. Speak for Yourself
by mrsstark2, 2/24/04 12:58 ET
did anyone notice? by cinndoug, 2/24/04

Many many people are extremely upset by aspects of this proposal. This church brings no real benefits to this community, that I can see.

I've noticed that the only "benefit" mentioned anymore are the playing fields, at limited availability. Big deal!

As for the residents' behavior, a certain amount of display was to be expected; not that I necessarily agree with some of the rude behavior, but I found myself on occasion feeling the same as the masses--sorry.

Many of us, as taxpaying residents of this township, are deeply offended and frustrated by our inability to have any say in what's going on in this situation.

Dr. Ireland playing dumb in one breath and quoting statistical figures in the next is not very convincing to us. Some of us don't trust his word.

Maybe we're not "saved" like you are, but we're still human beings--some simpler than others and some with a higher degree of diplomacy and restraint than others.

It's unfortunate that these people's questions offended you.

Maybe you should stay where you are now so you can be with a classier lot of people, not a bunch of rednecks that maybe don't want a crowd of out-of-towners flocking in to begin with.


both responding to:

1489.2. Same on You Rockaway
by Babcia, 2/24/04 12:02 ET
did anyone notice? by cinndoug, 2/24/04

How sad is it that in today's society a church has to beg and plead their case to build something that would only benefit the community. Shame on those who drilled the Pastor with insulting questions and to the gentlemen who got up there and tried to get laughs from the audience. To everyone that laughed - hang your head! I don't understand all of the hostility behind it. Do you really think it is going to cause that much traffic in the area - please! I think people need to get their priorities straight and oppose things that are worth opposing.



1495. I am confused over how Rev Ireland
by live2gether, 2/24/04 19:09 ET

and his annoying attorney can keep going on avoiding questions. Growth projections. Ofcourse everyone in RT is scared because they are scared of an invasion of non tax paying church members. Unless Ireland comes straight with growth projections I will always be suspicious of him. I think he would do anything to get his way. He should stay in Essex Co and get state funds to develop a site in Newark or somewhere- RT needs to be saved, we are on the verge of an irreversible damage



1494. Members vs. Attendees
by mrsstark2, 2/24/04 18:39 ET

At the last meeting, Rev. Ireland said 75% of his membership of 5,000 attends the typical Sunday service. This equals approximately 3,750 people.

He said last night that "many, many people attend for years without becoming members".

That's understandable in light of the 3-month membership class and tithing agreement that comes with membership. Many would simply attend and not become members.

So last night when the Reverend said there are 3,500 people attending an average Sunday service, what does that mean?

Is it 3,500?

Is it 3,750?

Is it 3,500 plus "many, many others who attend for years without becoming members"?

Which is it, Rev?


Toddavid responded that rev said 700 people come to each service.

I responded back with the same info as above, but simplified. that post has already been deleted.



1493.1.1. Fitness center
by todddavid, 2/24/04 18:57 ET
Many answers by todddavid, 2/24/04

Was mention and he said they would come up with a system where RT res would show proof they lived here and would be able to use it for free.Not to mention the other things like the indoor gym and the tennis and baskball courts and the fields.


My response to this post was also deleted, in which I stated that no one said "free" use of the health club/fitness center. Nothing offensive.



This one's not long for this world either

1492. So we are to believe
by tellymark, 2/24/04 19:42 ET
R T RES by 1941, 2/24/04

that the school is just for Sunday school? And the fitness center and the meeting rooms and ball fields are just for Sundays? And we are to believe that such a gigantic undertaking is mostly just for Sundays? I don't know about you, but I don't believe that for a minute. Again, evading the real questions here. Christ Church is 5 times bigger than Agilent. Five times more cars. Green Pond cannot handle it no matter what day it is. It is the ONLY road in and out of this part of Rockaway. And Agilent did pay their way!



Because Todddavid might realize his stupidity and have the whole thread deleted:

1491.1.1. Open for Other Religions...
by mrsstark2, 2/24/04 18:51 ET
Re: Facts or Fiction - HELP by RT11, 2/24/04

Yes, they're open to other religions...

1. What if there's a contracting company of struggling Hindu immigrants, certainly much cheaper than a Christian company...that would be appropriate!

2. What if there are some nice Jewish kids who want to attend our school? Their money is as good as anyone's, right? Maybe we can convert them and their families and they'll start attending and become members.

3. But...for the higher paid positions, we'd best make sure we take care of our own.

What does it boil down to folks? Which "D" word--or both?


1491.1.1.1. hmmm
by todddavid, 2/24/04 19:02 ET
Re: Facts or Fiction - HELP by RT11, 2/24/04

That sounded like sour grapes there worry.

How do you know who will be hired and who will be atteding the school. Do you have facts on this and can you tell us where we can find them.

Remember the planning board and if needed a court will only go by facts not things that are made up.

Why would you accuse the church of this with zero idea who they will hire or who will go to there school. I am sure you were just making a bad joke or I hope that was the case


1491. Were you there last night?
by RT11, 2/24/04 19:07 ET
Facts or Fiction - HELP by RT11, 2/24/04

Direct from the reverend's mouth to RT's ears... Yes, your money is good and you can attend. NO you can not teach if you are a non-christian. That about answers your question.

Regarding Ms. Berger's religion... I have it on good authority she is non-christian.

What is good for the golden goose should be good for the gander. But it ain't!!



1496. Steno note
by RTWPVoice, 2/24/04 19:21 ET

when I get a copy of the minutes i will review for what comment was made.




1502. Why Todd?
by Whytodd, 2/25/04 1:11 ET

Why on earth do you arrange (somehow) to get my screen names blocked, delete my responses to your questions, and then ask me more questions acting as if you think I'll answer?

I can't answer, you had me blocked.

I have better things to do than sit around creating new screen names just so I can rebut your nonsensical posts.

trying this one again


I wonder how long it'll last.

1494.1.1. Hey Todd--
by mrsstark3, 2/25/04 13:28 ET
Members vs. Attendees by mrsstark2, 2/25/04

I'll re-post my response, which you had removed and banned my IP so I couldn't respond:

I'll type it more slowly this time:

At the last meeting, Rev. Ireland said 75% of his membership of 5,000 attends the typical Sunday service. This equals approximately 3,750 people.

He said last night that "many, many people attend for years without becoming members".

That's understandable in light of the 3-month membership class and tithing agreement that comes with membership. Many would simply attend and not become members.

So last night when the Reverend said there are 3,500 people attending an average Sunday service, what does that mean? (I got your "easy answer"--good to see you know how your 5 times-tables)

So, is it 3,500?

Is it 3,750?

Or, is it 3,500 plus "many, many others who attend for years without becoming members"?



1505.1. You're Dreaming!
by mrsstark3, 2/25/04 18:55 ET
DID angry outbust tip scales by todddavid, 2/25/04

Bad form, yes.

But did he accomplish his objective?


Sorry you disapproved of his methods. Truly a bummer.

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