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Post Info TOPIC: Lower amount is the devil...the higher is G-d


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Lower amount is the devil...the higher is G-d


Very interesting article from the Orlando Sentinel....Of course, the article is not about Rev. Ireland, but a fellow mega-pastor.  Draw your own conclusions / comparisons.

  Singer-pastor took long road to prosperity

By Mark I. Pinsky and Linda Shrieves | Sentinel Staff Writers
Posted February 13, 2005

The sanctuary rocks with gospel music as multicolored spotlights play across the packed pews where thousands in the congregation stand, swaying, singing, clapping and waving their arms.

The animated preacher, dressed in a dark suit and white shirt open at the collar, bounds onto the brightly lit stage. He takes a seat at a grand piano. Backed by a 70-member choir, he pounds the keyboard and sings, sounding at times like a Pentecostal Neil Diamond.

It is Sunday morning at FaithWorld megachurch west of Maitland, and four video cameras are trained on Clint Brown. The nationally known recording artist soon trades the piano for a lectern. From there, the pastor urges members to give "sacrificially" so that their "blessings increase," bringing them more money, job promotions, and new houses and cars. For anyone who needs reminding, videotapes of the service are $15 in the church lobby.

In his dual roles as FaithWorld's music director and pastor, Brown is one part rock star and one part preacher. Those two competing and contradictory lifestyles frame the portrait of 41-year-old Clint Brown. In 12 years, the man who arrived in Orlando with no job, no flock and no guarantees has gained prominence and amassed the trappings of wealth.

Brown, his wife and two children occupy two parsonages in gated Central Florida communities, one purchased for $1 million in 2000 and the other for $500,000 in December. FaithWorld is paying for both.

Of the Browns' seven cars, the church makes payments on two -- a Mercedes sedan and a Mercedes sport utility vehicle -- according to legal documents. The other vehicles include a third Mercedes, a Porsche and a Hummer.

In 2002, a lucrative year for Clint Brown's music career, he and his family charged $242,256 on two American Express cards alone. The following year, they rang up $215,701 on the same cards. Some of the credit-card charges were paid for by the church, which is reviewing the bills.

Two developments have cast a spotlight on Brown and his 6,000-member church. A former congregation member filed a lawsuit claiming $200,000 she gave Brown in 1999 for a new church was a loan, and not a gift, as the church maintains. And Brown's 38-year-old wife, Angela, filed for divorce last year in Seminole County.

Using details from the divorce file, news accounts provided a rare glimpse into the lavish lifestyle of the minister who runs the 25-acre FaithWorld complex, all the while nurturing a music career on the side.

Clint Brown has delivered his most public comments about these disclosures during sermons at his church west of Maitland. Though he said he has not read or watched any of the recent accounts about him, he told his congregation two Sundays ago that the devil was behind all the recent controversy.

"If they crucified Jesus," he said, "they're going to talk about me."

Neither Clint Brown nor Angela Brown responded to repeated requests by the Sentinel for comment.

Seven FaithWorld members spoke to the Sentinel, and all steadfastly supported Brown.

"He's just down-to-earth and for real," said Chester Blanton, 56, of Orlando. "A lot of people in the congregation knew the things that were going on in his personal life, but we don't have anything to do with that.

"Who are we to judge? Because we are not here to judge; we're here to learn the word of God, and he'll be the judge."

'He preached money'

Much of Clint Brown's ministry focuses on money: giving it to the church and receiving heaven's blessings accordingly.

In his past three Sundays in the pulpit, Brown's first words to his Pentecostal congregation involved giving money to the church. Giving sacrificially will be rewarded manifold because it "opens up the window of heaven that pours out a blessing that we do not have enough room to contain," he quoted from the Bible on Jan. 23.

This message has alienated at least one of Brown's former followers.

Linda Devine, 51, left FaithWorld in 2001 because Brown "didn't preach salvation. He didn't preach the Gospel. . . . He preached money." If you didn't tithe, Devine said, the entire congregation would suffer.

"It's a total guilt trip," the Altamonte Springs telemarketer said.

Brown's style of preaching, known as prosperity gospel, mirrors that of televangelist Benny Hinn, his predecessor at the congregation. Prosperity gospel is a strain of Pentecostalism that periodically cycles through American religion and is not confined to a single denomination, according to Leo Sandon, emeritus professor of religion at Florida State University.

"The whole idea is that there's a mechanism whereby if you give to a church or a ministry, that gift comes back to you a hundredfold," Sandon said. "It borders on magic rather than on traditional Christian theology."

A national figure in the Charismatic-Pentecostal community, Brown is clearly identified with prosperity gospel, said Lee Grady, editor of Lake Mary-based Charisma, an independent Christian magazine.

"Your average observer would certainly put him in that category," Grady said. "He certainly believes in prosperity."

For experts who study the phenomenon, the prosperity gospel appeals to Americans' materialism.

Its message "either justifies your lifestyle and justifies your wealth, or it gives a hope for achieving that wealth," said Margaret Poloma, a sociology professor and author of Main Street Mystics: The Toronto Blessing and Reviving American Pentecostalism.

Clint Brown gets his wealth through a mix of salary and benefits from FaithWorld as well as from his musical career.

In 2002, his income topped $650,000, according to his wife's divorce filing. Of that total, he only earned $142,432 in salary from FaithWorld, and a nontaxable housing allowance of more than $100,000. More than half of that year's income came from music royalties, compact-disc sales and performances.

Though his church salary remained steady from 2000 to 2002, the most recent years included in the divorce file, outside revenue from his music career jumped from $48,000 to $380,000 during the same period.

The Browns spent accordingly.

From 2001 to 2004, Clint Brown set up credit accounts at Mayors Jewelers to buy four Rolex watches ranging from $23,000 to $40,900, according to loan documents filed with the state. In June 2001, the divorce file shows, Angela Brown rang up credit-card charges of $9,175 at the Escada boutique in Bal Harbour -- and spent an additional $12,000 there the next month. In June 2003, Clint Brown charged $12,057 at St. John Boutique in Bal Harbour. On two Las Vegas trips, Clint Brown spent nearly $25,000 at shops such as the Fendi boutique, Versace Jeans Couture and Hyde Park jewelers.

In the divorce filing, Angela Brown says her husband purchased $70,000 worth of women's clothing on one of the couple's credit cards, but none of it went to her or her teenage daughter. She says in the divorce filing that FaithWorld paid for all those clothing purchases.

FaithWorld church attorney Mark Matthew O'Mara said he is reviewing all the bills submitted by the Browns to the church. He said an unknown number of the couple's credit-card charges were approved by the church's governing board, composed of the church's staff management team -- all of them paid employees of the congregation.

In Pentecostal circles, expensive gifts of clothing are common, said former FaithWorld member Wayne Pugh, a missionary based in Marietta, Ga.

"People that minister for us, we don't just give them a check at the end of the night," Pugh said. "We buy them a gift -- a brand-new suit, ties, a box of chocolates. That's common knowledge."

So when prominent female ministers come through Orlando, Pugh said, it would be common for ministers such as Brown to lavish them with a $2,000 or $3,000 suit.

Louisiana upbringing

In the tiny towns of southwest Louisiana, where most boys eventually go to work in the oil fields or the chemical plants in nearby Lake Charles, Clint Brown had a quality that stood out, even as a teenager:

The power of persuasion.

In Iota, a town so small that it still has no stoplights, he was a young man known for his people skills.

"He was one of the more popular guys in high school," recalled Kay Lynn Royer, a classmate at Iota High. "He was very cute, very sweet and a very nice person."

A trumpet player, Brown became drum major of the band in his senior year. That's when many band members began to see flashes of his future. When the football team began losing and fans quit attending games, Brown exhorted fellow band members to play with pride.

"He preached at us that we needed to have spirit, even though the stands were empty," recalled Kayla Soileau, a band member and now editor of Iota's weekly newspaper.

The ways of the church weren't foreign to Brown. His father, Charles Brown, remembers him baptizing toy soldiers in the bathtub as a boy. Later, he frequently talked to other teens about the Pentecostal church he attended outside of town.

"He was always into church and encouraged his friends to go on youth trips with his church," Soileau recalled. "He wasn't pushy or overbearing, just persuasive."

After graduating from high school, Brown wasn't certain what to do. So Charles Brown got him a job with his employer, Coastal Corp., for which he worked as a mechanic on a natural-gas pipeline. After a year, Clint Brown was ready to move on.

"He came to me one day and said, 'Daddy, this ain't my line of work,' " recalled his father. " 'I appreciate what you've done for me, but I ain't cut out for this. I just cannot see Clint Brown 30 years from now working on this pipeline.' "

So he hit the road, performing Christian music and learning firsthand about race. Brown -- who is white and attended a high school where fewer than 3 percent of the students were black -- began performing with black musicians.

"It was at that point that I realized that God was ready to use me as a bridge between the white and black community," he said in a 1999 Sentinel interview. These days, Brown's FaithWorld congregation is predominantly black and Hispanic.

In Louisiana, Brown met a minister named Gerald Doggett. That association introduced him to Doggett's teenage daughter, Angela, whom he married in 1984.

Performing at small churches throughout rural Louisiana didn't pay the bills, said Charles Brown, so Clint Brown took a job in Lafayette as a youth minister. When traveling evangelist Mike Murdock saw Brown perform, he asked him to join his Texas-based team.

Clint Brown's big break came in the late 1980s, Charles Brown said, when Murdock's team visited Rod Parsley's World Harvest Church in Columbus, Ohio. Parsley, whom Charisma magazine has described as "part warrior, part cheerleader -- a good showman," was taken with Brown's performance -- and asked him to become the megachurch's music minister.

Parsley, who preaches the prosperity gospel, lives on an estate that includes his $1 million home and a second house worth $939,700, according to county auditor's records in Fairfield County, Ohio. Parsley would not comment for this story.

During Brown's five-year tenure at World Harvest, he blossomed as a musician and began to sense his preaching ability, Brown said in the 1999 interview.

Steadily improving fortunes

Although Brown did not "go to pastor school," as he wrote in his book Make My Baby Jump, he had a desire to preach as well as sing. Those dual desires led him to leave Ohio in 1993 for an uncertain future in Central Florida.

During that 18-hour trip, his van's windows were broken and his family's possessions stolen, Brown wrote in his book That's Not Good Enough. It was one in a series of "attacks from hell to try to steal the energy and enthusiasm for what God had called me to do," Brown wrote.

Soon, however, his fortunes changed. Although new to Orlando, his first meeting at the Orlando Garden Club in Loch Haven Park drew 350 people -- many of them eager to see Parsley's former music man in action, Charles Brown said.

However, a year later, during a dispute about rent payments, the club's officers asked Brown to leave. While discussing the situation with Brown, the officers said, he cursed at them.

"He used coarse language to me, eye to eye," recalled Ginger Long, club treasurer. "I had little respect for the man before then, and I had none afterward."

From the Garden Club, Brown moved from one rented location to another, his congregation growing steadily, until he landed in an Apopka shopping center.

"He developed a following from his music," Grady said. "All of a sudden you had a white guy who could sing like a black guy, and his music had such a strong appeal with both white and black audiences."

In 1999, Hinn, the Orlando evangelist, announced he was moving his World Outreach Center to Texas, and that his congregation would "merge" with Brown's Apopka church. Both congregations would occupy Hinn's complex on Forest City Road.

In July 2000, Brown's FaithWorld bought that complex and a handful of nearby residential properties for $9.3 million from World Outreach Center, according to Orange County land records. After a series of first and second mortgages, lines of credit and refinancings, FaithWorld now has an $11.25 million mortgage with the Evangelical Christian Credit Union of Brea, Calif.

Certified public accountants who handle other churches' finances said there could be several reasons FaithWorld's debt has increased.

The church leadership may be taking advantage of Florida's increasing land prices and property values -- and merely borrowing against that, said Thomas Heaton, an Alpharetta, Ga., accountant who specializes in church financing.

"It sounds to me like the bank either has a great deal of confidence in the value of the property," Heaton said, "or they place a great deal of value in the leadership of the church."

Many sources of money

Cash comes into Brown's ministry and FaithWorld from a variety of sources other than the white plastic buckets that serve as collection plates.

For the past nine years, Brown has sponsored his own conference, called Judah, at various Orlando locations. In July, senior pastors and music ministers will pay as much as $169 to register for the three-day conference of praise and worship at the upscale Peabody Hotel on International Drive.

Clint Brown's CDs are produced on his own label, Tribe Music, and recorded at a studio in the church complex. The CDs are sold through Clint Brown Ministries, a nonprofit corporation also located at FaithWorld. When the congregation files into the sanctuary, a tape plays on three large, electronic screens. It advertises Brown's latest CD, NBC: Nothing But Church, and a Clint Brown calendar, each for $5.

When he took over Hinn's ministry, Brown moved the traditional Wednesday-evening service to Tuesday night. The change, he said then, would enable him to go on the road during the week to perform his music at megachurches and religious conferences.

Still, Brown has not become a major figure in gospel or contemporary Christian music. Only one album has approached the top of the charts. In 2002, his One Nation Under Praise reached No. 4 on Billboard's Christian Albums Chart, according to the magazine's chart director, Wade Jessen. The album disappeared from the rankings a week later.

'This is probably normal'

Some wonder why an entertainer such as Brown shouldn't be able to live like a rock star just because his other job is pastor.

"Christian-music stars live very, very well," said Charisma's Grady. "If they become a pastor, does that mean that they need to live in a duplex?"

The Browns' 4,455-square-foot home in Alaqua Lakes in Seminole County is furnished with a $50,000 home entertainment center and a $5,000 pool table. Among their assets: $300,000 in jewelry, according to the divorce file.

"In his world, it may not be out of line," said Martin Glickstein, a Maitland CPA who prepares clergy tax returns. "This guy is obviously very public, a performer. In his lifestyle this is probably normal."

Regardless of the source of income, Brown's lifestyle is unseemly, said Steve Harper; vice president and professor of spiritual formation at Asbury Theological Seminary in Orlando.

"The Bible teaches that spiritual leaders are held to a higher standard, by the very public nature of our ministry," Harper said. "We have to be careful about our image. . . . We simply cannot live without accountability as spiritual leaders."

But supporters defend Brown and his spending, saying he routinely gives missionaries and other ministers money to start Pentecostal churches.

"He's a giver; he's very generous," said former member Pugh. "I've been there to a service, and he'll hand me $500 for a missions trip and a box of CDs."

Even as a child, Brown's father recalls, when Clint Brown went away to Pentecostal camp meetings with a suitcase full of new clothes, he often returned home with it half-empty.

Yet Charles Brown acknowledges that his son has developed a taste for the good life.

"I think Clint likes the finer things, I really do," his father said. "I would say that he could cut back just a little. But I don't think he's going overboard.

"He wants to look nice, wants to have nice cars," Charles Brown said. "He wants to be respected by the upper class of the city. He feels that he can stand right up there with the top people in Orlando and not be ashamed. He's just as good as the rest of them."

Jim Leusner, Darryl Owens, Aline Mendelsohn, Jim Abbott and Susan Thompson of the Sentinel staff contributed to this report. Mark Pinsky can be reached at 407-420-5589 or mpinsky@orlandosentinel.com. Linda Shrieves can be reached at 407-420-5433 or lshrieves@orlandosentinel.com.

-- Edited by GadFly at 10:47, 2005-02-13

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Quoting Brown:


"If they crucified Jesus," he said, "they're going to talk about me."


 


------------------


I find it fascinating that these characters attempt to draw parallels between themselves and G-d.  What we really have here are a bunch of Snake Oil Salesmen coupled to a bunch of followers who are unable to discern the difference betwen truly pious religious folks and self serving Fakes, Phoneys and Frauds.  I find that fact to be very sad, indeed.



-- Edited by Rational at 11:49, 2005-02-13

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Hey Rational... very good comments... you could write for some "solid" evangelical magazines (I'm not being sarcastic)


These guys are part of the "word of faith movement" ... just as most (but not all) of the big sunday morning TV guys are ... they are re-writing (making up is a better word) Christian doctrine as they go along and unfortunately are taking a great many people along for the ride.


Although much of RT has issues with Rev Ireland & cc, in all fairness, he is not part of this group... FYI... the sayreville church is


Let the paper print what they want ... lets stick to the issues & see what happens ... as you know getting drawn into name calling is exactly what their PR firm & the DR would like to see


 


Have a great day!



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Quoting RTDweller:


"Hey Rational... very good comments... you could write for some "solid" evangelical magazines (I'm not being sarcastic)"


---------


Maybe there is a good reason why I "Aced" the "Phd. in Dvinity Test" that I took online?  (It is not on display next to my engineering degrees here in the library, {but in a file if ya wanna see it} so rest assureed that there will be no problems here - - - no plans to start a cult!)  Also, though there was no skill involved, it explains why a jerk like myself is now an Ordained Minister with all of the the appropriate paperwork (also not on display with the rest of the degrees that I busted my ass off to get).


I do not know much about religion, but in so much as it concerns the Christian - Judeao ethos, I do recall a few basics that are at odds with circumstances that I observe locally and lately and are very troublesome to folks like myself: 


Is it not found in Scripture the following:


* Do not place any false Gods before me, your G-d.


* Love thy Neighbor.


Couple that with the seperation of Church and State, and we have one hell of a philosophical discussion, indeed.  Let me give you an example.


 


Assume that I believe, as a matter of religion, that all men need to have relations with at least 10 women per week.  (I have the right to maintain that position as a religious precept and also as a good American, no??)  Now, assume that I establish a following (probably would not be hard to do, I would guess, especially if I can irresponsibly connect engaging with lots of women in a 1 week time period with the good words of the L-rd).  My new religion would be is just as legimate as any other religion and also be tax exempt.


I would have a pretty good chance of landing lotsa followers (as long as I do not spell out all the detailed rules - - - - {I gotta taste all of the goods first for my parishioners as a quality control method - - - LOL}.


You may think that this scenario is all "Nutso".  Well, think again, cause it is a perfectly plausible religious belief, despite my own personal abhorance to such a theory! 


The Question that we all need to ask oursleves when we see this sort of nonsense is where are we all going with this?  Is anything that one calls a "religious belief" legitimate or does the government have the right to determine what is legitimate or is everything legitimate as long as we call it a "religious belief?" 


I do not have the answer to the above question, but it needs to be addressed by all of who are citizens of the US given the present circumstances.  Opportunity cerainly can and will allow all business ventures to define themselves as religions/chruches and so what does society do then?



Where did I get it wrong?  Maybe I should have gotten an "F" on my Divinity test.



 



-- Edited by Rational at 00:20, 2005-02-15

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In my opinion I could care less how anybody wants to worship - heck, worship a grilled cheese sandwich for all I care. Our situation has to do with a development proposal that we all agree has massive negitive impact in a number of ways - let's let the law uphold our position. You will never win a ****ing match with the policticly connected rev...

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If it's ok with you Rat, I will be going to John Q's "grilled Cheese Church " instead of yours ... It just sounds a little more... well... traditional


For what its worth I'm pretty sure Rev, Ireland takes a very different position on the separation of Church & state issue... many people believe that the purpose of that was to keep the government from having their own state enforced religion (like the "church of England)... A reason many pilgrims came here...that is to say it was more for keeping the state out of the church, whereas today it seems to have evolved into the opposite


True some "religious" institutions pocket cash for their own selfish purposes, but for every one of them there  are thousands that don't. Many of them use the profits to do great works in the community, country & world. I would agree we need ways to get the crooks, but I don't think that should be done at the expense of all the honest organizations. 


As to where Rev Irelands income/$$ comes from, we need to be careful to assume... it may come from other places (investments, inheritances etc.) ... CC's assumption that RT opposition is primarily from is a bunch of bigots is completely wrong... let us not stoop to such levels


 BTW... ask your attorney friend, but it may be possible that you can walk into cc & see a statement of their finances (an abbreviated statement of the books) ... tax exempt organizations are supposed to make that info available... perhaps if you brought your Divinity degree you could get a part time job to help pay for Daniels college!!


Have a great day!



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quote:


Originally posted by: JohnQ
"In my opinion I could care less how anybody wants to worship - heck, worship a grilled cheese sandwich for all I care. Our situation has to do with a development proposal that we all agree has massive negitive impact in a number of ways - let's let the law uphold our position. You will never win a ****ing match with the policticly connected rev..."


Well said sir. There has been far too much concern over the inner workings of CC, and the character of Dr. Ireland, and not enough focus on the project itself. Although I might agree to some extent that some of Dr. Ireland's statements and lack of statements on some issues may call into question his credibility as a "witness", I find it disturbing that some have chosen to attack his religion and everything and everyone in his orbit .Frankly, some of the childish character attacks I have seen call into question the character of the attacker more than the attacked, and as a lifelong Rockaway Township resident, I find that to be an embarassment and counterproductive to the cause.Focus on the issue at hand, the size,scope and impact of this application.



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Amen!

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Quoting fyrral:


"Focus on the issue at hand, the size,scope and impact of this application."


--------


The problem with the above logic is that the lawsuiit will be COMPLETELY based on his religion and our interference with it.  It will have nothing to do with size, scope and impact.  And guess what folks?  He will very likely win the suit.  Sorry for the news.


There is only one way to shut this thing down which is airtight according to my attorney and that is to


Condem the Property. 


Wake up folks.


 



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quote:


Originally posted by: Rational
-------- The problem with the above logic is that the lawsuiit will be COMPLETELY based on his religion and our interference with it.  It will have nothing to do with size, scope and impact. 



 


Sounds more like a paranoid rationalization than a judgement arrived at through logic to me. I don't believe it for a moment.Perhaps you need a new lawyer, or at least one that does not tell you what you want to hear to feed your rationalizations. And even if your statement was true, how is attacking Ireland, his church and his religion going to help



-- Edited by fyrral at 10:42, 2005-02-15

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Unless the town condemns the property, the so called "Church" is going to make all of its arguments based on its persecution by the township in total violation of its legal standing as a church.  So, if the township wants to limit this thing based on size, scope, impact, it better get prepared for some really tough questions in court unless it can prove that this thing is a business and not a church.


For instance, here are a few good questions that I would ask if I was his attorney:


1. What has the township done proactively to move its well since it knows that the church will impact it?  Answer: Nadda


2. Has the township met with the Morris county freeholders to review what needs to be done to widen GPR in order to provide the Church with its legally deserved accomodations, or has the town just bitched about the problem? 


3. Why is the township worrying about the two streams in question and their contamination by the project when the township does not use that as a source of water?  How come Jersey City Water Works has not instituted a complaint, only RT?  And if the DEP is not worried about it, why the hell is RT worried about it?


4. If RT is concerned about the streams, nonetheless, why has a committe not been formed to figure out a way to filter the streams due to modified runoff?  Again, the township is doing nothing but complaining and not being proactive about solving the problems so that the Church can enjoy its rights as a bone fide religion.


5. Has the township considerd purchasing some of the adjacent businesses to the property in question in order to spread out the affected percentage of impervious surfaces due to the construction of the church?  I am talking about the two or three businesses located directly behind the Agilent site. If not, why not?


6. Has a committee been formed to limit the utilization of the sewarage facility so that there is enough to account for the growth of the church?  Why has the township been approving all these other projects that ARE going to use up sewerage gallonage when it knows that the Church will be needing that?


7. Has the township established its contingency plan to pay for additonal sewarage facilities to accomodate the needs of the church, or is it just bitching about it?


Shall I go on??  At the end of the day, Ireland will win his lawsuit BECAUSE he is a church and enjoys many privledges that this town has yet to come to grips with.  RT simply has been unwilling to figure out methods and financing plans to facilite him and his flock.  Rather, it keeps on talking about scope, impact and size as if that matters in a court of law.


Folks, those things DO NOT matter as the law stands. Ireland could build another Vatican here if he wanted to and its size, scope and impact would be completely irrelevent arguments  It is our job to provide him with the appropriate accomodations, not to block him.


Sorry, but that is the truth of the matter.  But, if you folks want to play Osterich, so be it.



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The premise of your last post supposes that the religious land use act requires that the town not only may have to use a different set of standards to deny the application, but actually go out of their way to accomodate him in every way possible,even before the application is approved.It sounds like from your description we should even build the thing for them. I'll admit to having not read the religious land use act, but I can't imagine that all of the items on your list are incumbent on the town. One question does remain unanswered from my previous post.


How do the personal attacks on Ireland, his church and his religion help the cause in any way



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Let's not jump to conclusions yet Rat - as far as I know, the court case we have filed with the DEP is still pending. I would imagine any Judge that listens to the facts from our side is at least going to order the DEP to apply their standards to the real plans before the board. That is going to be intresting indeed...

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Quoting fyrral:


"How do the personal attacks on Ireland, his church and his religion help the cause in any way"


-------------------


The immoral reverend is directing a major onalaught upon our town with no regard for its citizens.  The personal attacks are my response to his actions.  They help the cause for only one little but important reason; it makes one of the townships citizens feel a little better, you know, catharesis. 


I hope that my reason meets with your approval, oh gracious one.


 



 



-- Edited by Rational at 14:37, 2005-02-15

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John,


I have read the Highlands Act.  If I am reading it correctly, the sole jurisdiction for its enforcement or lack thereof lies with the discretion of the DEP director.  The director can even override the commission.  The most that the courts can do is ask for the commission and / or director to review their decision.  Certainly, if the commission finds that the decision is in err, the director will have no problem overturning the commission and rule that the original decision stands.  This is the likely outcome, since the director made the original decision.  And that basically would be the end of that.


If someone else has read the law and interprets it differently, I would like to hear from them.  Not being a lawyer, I could easily have mis-interpreted what I read.



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Rat - I am uder the impression that the latest plans that cc has submitted to our board do in fact put tha applicant at over 125% of the existing footprint. If this is true, how can the DEP overstep it's own laws and give special treatment to any entity? I guess they can do what ever being the government, but the bad publicity should have some effect on the final decision now that this thing is gaining publicity. Heck, we may make national headlines before this turkey is baked...

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Yeah, I know about the 125 percent situation with their plans vs what they submitted.  So, let us assume that the DEP does knock down the exemption (as you know, I doubt that will happen).  That means that cc will re-submit plans that to not violate that requirement.  However, as soon as they are approved and moved here, then they become an existing church.  That means the sky is the limit in terms of what they can do.  The Highlands Act will no longer apply to them and they can do pretty much whatever they damn well please.  Any way that I look at it; it is a checkmate situation.


The only aspect of things that I thought was a good development was the modifications of the local zoning ordinances pertaiing to conditional use.  What I saw there is the ability for our town to delay some more and then let the lawsuit ensue.  Once the lawsuit begins, it will take at least three years to resolve.  At his anualized growth rate of 26% per year, his congregation will have blossomed to 12,800 persons before he puts a shovel in that ground.  At that congregation size, I wonder if he will not bulge at the seams in Montclair long before the legal battle is settled.


Of course, as I have stated before, he will win the legal battle, but it will still take another two years to build this monstrosity.  That will put his congregation at 20,300 by the time he moves here.  He is an engineer and I am sure that he has run the math.  I am not sure that he can wait that long to handle the crowds.


Keep in mind that if he wins the lawsuit (the likely scenario) he wins the fines and also wins the right to put his church there.  If the courts judge that there was malfeasance on the part of the township, he could be awarded treble damages.


The sure fire solution is property condemnation.  Then, he will sue but it is very unlikely that he would get much more than the award of a small fine; certainly he would not get the right to build on that lot.  Our argument for the condemnation could be as simple as this:


If that church went in, RT could go bankrupt trying to provide the infrastructure needed.  Would the State or County take over the operation of RT if that happened?  I do not think that the state or the county wants that to happen. Condemnation is a well recognized means by which a township can protect its own best interest and the argument is totally legitimate.



-- Edited by Rational at 16:42, 2005-02-15

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quote:

Originally posted by: Rational

"Quoting fyrral: "How do the personal attacks on Ireland, his church and his religion help the cause in any way" ------------------- The immoral reverend is directing a major onalaught upon our town with no regard for its citizens.  The personal attacks are my response to his actions.  They help the cause for only one little but important reason; it makes one of the townships citizens feel a little better, you know, catharesis.  I hope that my reason meets with your approval, oh gracious one.    -- Edited by Rational at 14:37, 2005-02-15"

 Your reasons, methods and tone do not meet with my approval. But I do thank you for an honest answer. No sarcasm intended.


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quote:

Originally posted by: Rational

"However, as soon as they are approved and moved here, then they become an existing church.  That means the sky is the limit in terms of what they can do.  The Highlands Act will no longer apply to them and they can do pretty much whatever they damn well please."


Rat,


I believe you are incorrect.....From the Highland's law:


Section 30:  The following are exempt from the provisions of this act...


(6) any improvement, for non-residential purpose, to a place of worship owned by a nonprofit entity...in existence on the date of enactment of this act...


Since the act has already been enacted, Christ Church, having not been existence at 140 GPR when the act was enacted, will NOT be exempt.


...at least that's my read on it.  Read it for yourself (pages 58 & 59) at http://www.state.nj.us/dep/highlands/docs/highlands_bill.pdf


 



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Quoting fyrral:


 


"Your reasons, methods and tone do not meet with my approval. But I do thank you for an honest answer. No sarcasm intended"


------------


Surely, you can not be so delusional to honestly think that I give a Rats A$$ if anything that I say or do meets with your approval, do you?



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Quoting Gadfly:


"...in existence on the date of enactment of this act..."


------------


Sorry, indeed I did miss that clause in the Act.  That is a very good clause working in our favour, indeed!  Glad to hear about it!


 



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quote:


Originally posted by: Rational
"Quoting fyrral:   "Your reasons, methods and tone do not meet with my approval. But I do thank you for an honest answer. No sarcasm intended" ------------ Surely, you can not be so delusional to honestly think that I give a Rats A$$ if anything that I say or do meets with your approval, do you?"


you did say you hoped that it did meet with my approval. i just answered the question. i don't really expect any paranoid megalomaniac to give a rats a$$ about what i or anyone else thinks anyway.



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Y'know, you guys really know how to eff up a legitimate, interesting thread.

Stop now.

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