Well it looks like Mr. Dooty had me banned from NJ.con after I replied to one of his posts last week. My post was almost immediately removed. Now I cant log back on even with a new Username. If anyone still has access to that PIA board and cares to, please respond to "FormerD"'s ridiculous post that CC will pay taxes on everything but the actual church. Although my research says that is a possibility, based on other towns legal precedent, it is not the norm, especially in RT and CC has NO intention of paying ANY taxes as all of their mega-business is under the churches umbrella and considered (at least by them) as totally tax exempt. Again he is spreading misinformation and calling it fact.
Daniel, you are absolutely right. I plead guilty. I can usually read the posts, consider the sources, and laugh at them, but occasionally it hits a particular chord and I cant resist posting a reply. My bad, as they say.
Dweller, Thomas Edward Doty, (AKA:Ted Doty), or as we like to, not so affectionately, refer to him, Turd Dooty, is a long time local voice of negativism. He has run, very unsucessfully, for several political posts in RT in the past, and has generally made a royal PIA of himself to anyone and everyone in local politics including the school board. He seems to always be against whatever the majority is for, and takes great pleasure in furthering his own agenda in every platform available by insulting and demeaning everyone else and espousing his own extremely myopic view. Many of us have tried on more than one occasion to give him the benefit of the doubt, but he continues to push the envelope, and peoples patience, at every turn. He attends all of the town meetings and at one of the early council meetings was actually told to finally shut up or they would have him removed. It is really a shame because he is an intelligent man who could, without a doubt, provide a benefit to many causes, but instead seems to be happier by making people lives miserable whenever he can. Some have speculated that it may be his disability (he is confined to a wheelchair) that makes him so angry and mean spirited. I dont know. I do know that he has tried in every way, shape, and form to discredit the good work that VORT is trying to do and has repeatedly called our Mayor a liar in public forums. He likes to promote a variety of conspiracy theories on almost a daily basis. He is the only person that I know of that has been banned from this message board so he stays on NJ.com where they seem to appreciate his madness.
Thanks Chuck, it makes alot more sense now... i am also intrigued at rationals theory about who controls nj.con... i tried to get some mega church info onto it & it wouldn't take it...while i am certainly no expert on mega churches, i have studied them for about 10 years, been to many, attended one regularly, & have friends who are intimately acquainted with the financial end of them, serving as accountants, board members, consultants & advisors.
Based on some quick contacts with these friends & typical giving trends, cc will probably need at least 12,000+ people to handle the site financially (unless the have some or one very large 7 figure contributors)... this is consistent with the seating capacity design, which typically mega churchs figure on a minimum of 3 sunday services...also when they need to exceed 3, many of them add a saturday night instead of a 4th sunday, since the very early service is usually so poorly attended.
BTW...The number of parking spots is way too low... not many know this, but parking is one of the big driving forces in mega churches locating spots... unfortunately for RT, the way around this is to add more or to rent or buy lots on the same road the church is on & run shuttle buses (or just park on the shoulder of the road)
Dweller, I agree with everything you mentioned. I dont know where they get the deep pockets they seem to have, unless the Rev is just bleeding these people dry. I know in one of his videos he encourages the members to get a second job and to follow the tithe principle to support the project. It also comes from reliable sources that the actual purchase price is only $12M not really $14M. They will pay 12M and give Agilent a letter of charitable donation for the other $2M. Still they are going to have to put at least another $15-20M into the project. Its really a shame when you think of how much that kind of $ could help people who really need it. CC has already been playing games with the parking numbers. Twp ordinance requires 1 spot for every 3 people, so CC changed the designation on some of the rooms making them storage rooms, reduced the number of classrooms and the like to reduce the occupancy figure, then proposed condensing the size of the parking spaces so they could squeeze in the reqd amount. In addition they are adding the "underbldg" parking and a two tiered deck off to the side of the main bldg. All of that, of course, would require a variance from the town, which they arent likely to get either. The entire project is a fiasco no matter how you look at it. All so the big man can act bigger and fulfill his dream to create "IreLand" and be the biggest church in NJ.
Potentially, it could turn out to be the largest church on the East Coast of the United States depending on his growth and his ability to expand once he is in situ.
Without a doubt they are hoping to be huge, I was just throwing out the minimum number needed to pay for everything using standard mega church trends.
the parking equation works in their favor (to get in)... very few cars will have 3 people in them...mostly 1 & 2... this type of church is different than most, as families often do not come together since many help in the childrens church etc. Their site says they have 400-500 volunteers, most of them drive in early and alone & stay most of the day... that's 1/2 the parking alone.
I can't comment on the deep pockets other than to say that having enough money to get in is one thing, having enough to improve/build/continue is quite another. I have no knowledge of financial improprieties on Rev. Ireland's part however.
The site & improvements appears way too expensive for their congregation size & amount of building they are allowed at this point is too small for the congregation they are anticipating needing to pay all the bills. this is a bad mixture. They will either have to build more on the site or purchase off site real estate (this is very common and will almost definately happen).
Having attended many churches like this, I can tell you that Green Pond Rd. is too narrow, especially since almost everyone will come from rt 80 (or 46/denville) and also due to the fact that there are no alternate roads to GPR for the local people to use.
It is a mess to say the least, one can only hope that rev. ireland will see this & gracefully bow out. (I guess you can tell that I am not against him or cc, I just have my doubts about the site & the tremendous turmoil this has created & we probably have only seen the tip of the iceberg)
Irelands actions have made it clear that it is completely irrelivent how much turmoil that he cause his "neighbors." (Is that a Christian value? - - - that was a rhetorical question and needs no answer).
As for the property that he could purchase, there are several small companies that he could purchase directly behind that property that would make nice parking lots. Obviously, he is aware of that since he is no dumby having graduated from Engineering school (a tough scholastic curriculum) (Craig has two degrees in Engineering and I know him well, so I know about that.)
As for alternate travel routes, he has at least 3, and, in a sense, a forth possibility (at our cost). They are as follows:
1. Meriden Road
2. Farber Hill Road
3. The existing dirt Road behind and running parallel to Green Pond Road which could be paved and developed.
4. Green Pond Road could be widened to 4 lanes at the citizens of Morris counties expense to accomidate his traffic on Sunday. (He does not need to do anything, except "grow his congregation" and then "complain about the effect on his services" and that problem will be solved at taxpayers expense. BTW - we will gladly do so once he is in place at that locale since NOT improving Green Pond Road will totally "gridlock" the rest of us who live here on Sundays.
Some people who monitor this venue get p-i-s-s-ed that I mention these things because they think that I am revealing things that ireland can use that he did not know about. That is very naive. He knows more about RT that most residents do - - - he can afford to know these things via his paid advisors. So, cut me a break on this, folks. I am just not that smart to deserve that sort of criticism.
you are 100% correct that they are aware of all of these options. Even if they weren't, they would figure them out as they drive around day after day. I would imagine they drive around the site & neighborhood fairly often.They have savy people working there, as all mega churches do. I would imagine all the things you just stated were discussed before an offer was made on the property.
actually I think what you say is constructive because it allows everyone to see the potential here. The church will have to grow extensively to survive. This is a very important point that our politicians will need to pay attention to. Pastor Ireland is not that well known of a national preacher to make it at this point to pay for the site from a media empire (very few can as their TV shows are usually subsidized by the congregations)... there are only a handful of media preachers in the entire USA that could handle the kind of money we are talking here, and at this point he is not one of them.
PS...I think if you don't lose your temper in your posts, people will take you more seriously...just a thought
Forget the temper - - - many of us have EMOTIONAL ties to this area. I do. My friends, Craig and Marla are very disturbed by the situation here and are moving out. I am also concerned because I have always lived in this area and love living here. Those guys are leaving, but I would still love to stay here because, particularly, of the split rock availibility and the ability to enjoy that from a sportsman perspective, now that it is open to the public. Also, the proximity to the City is wonderful. Did you know that Rockaway Township is the second largest legal entity in terms of square milage in the state of NJ, only behind Vineland, NJ. I just can not imagine what this place will look like after this so called "church" moves in here.
